Flourish Excel or Florin Axis? - The Planted Tank Forum
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-05-2014, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
IDR
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
IDR's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 433
Flourish Excel or Florin Axis?

I've used Flourish Excel (Seachem) for a while now, daily dosed, and it's done just fine by my non-CO2 injected tank (Eco complete base, Finnex Planted Plus LED), but I have a friend who swears by Florin Axis who says I should switch over.

Has anyone used both who could shed some light? Worth the switch-over? Silly as it sounds, the thing I'm actually most turned off by is that Amazon Prime carries Excel. Florin Axis is additional shipping costs of like $7. Not a ton, but why pay more when I don't have to, unless it's really worth it?
IDR is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-05-2014, 09:45 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zorfox's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 2,105
I've never used it. However, I've read the claims by the manufacturer. All I can tell you is it reads like most snake oil advertisements. Throw a lot of complicated scientific terms in and most people will assume it must be a high tech new product.

Carbon from Citric acid, Sodium citrate?...I suppose there could be some but it certainly won't be close to glut. Which is cheaper.

"Krebs cycle intermediates". What a fancy term for epsom salt.

Personally, I'd stick with Excel or glut. I see nothing miraculous in the ingredients despite the claims. If it were much better than glut I think it would be more popular. There's probably a reason for that.
Zorfox is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-05-2014, 10:04 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
greaser84's Avatar
 
PTrader: (11/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: NC
Posts: 1,425
I've never used it. If your looking for cheap and effective metricide is the best and is a lot stronger. 1 gallon for 20 bucks on ebay


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
greaser84 is offline  
 
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-05-2014, 10:17 PM Thread Starter
IDR
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
IDR's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
I've never used it. However, I've read the claims by the manufacturer. All I can tell you is it reads like most snake oil advertisements. Throw a lot of complicated scientific terms in and most people will assume it must be a high tech new product.

Carbon from Citric acid, Sodium citrate?...I suppose there could be some but it certainly won't be close to glut. Which is cheaper.

"Krebs cycle intermediates". What a fancy term for epsom salt.

Personally, I'd stick with Excel or glut. I see nothing miraculous in the ingredients despite the claims. If it were much better than glut I think it would be more popular. There's probably a reason for that.
Yeah, I won't lie just in going over a lot of the information, I felt like I needed a chemistry degree with a minor in biology.

The reason I was asking if anyone had any real experience with it is because I really haven't been able to find any real evidence of it's effect anywhere, and it's not as though Excel hasn't been working well for me.
IDR is offline  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-05-2014, 11:48 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (84/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 21,015
Hoppy is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-06-2014, 03:41 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 8
I think you stay with what works for you!

No need for a new unknown.
TXNNVA is offline  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-06-2014, 04:10 PM
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto/Singapore
Posts: 11,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
"Krebs cycle intermediates". What a fancy term for epsom salt.
I just wanted to point out that nowhere in the Krebs cycle is Epsom salt involved.

That being said, I would be skeptical of a product like Florin Axis; it seems 'too good to be true.'

Anthony


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-06-2014, 04:11 PM
Planted Tanker
 
burr740's Avatar
 
PTrader: (123/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bama
Posts: 5,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by greaser84 View Post
I've never used it. If your looking for cheap and effective metricide is the best and is a lot stronger. 1 gallon for 20 bucks on ebay
+1 for Metricide. Amazon has quarts for $14 and gallons for $25


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




burr740 is online now  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-06-2014, 05:49 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (64/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,373
Hi All,

Citric acid is a source of carbon.

I am not a biologist but from what I understand inside each plant we have a couple of growth cycles going on; the Calvin Cycle and the Krebs Cycle. The Calvin Cycle deals with plant photosysthesis and the production of sucrose. The Krebs Cycle deals with plant respiration which uses sucrose. The glutaraldehyde in Seachem Excel / API CO2 Booster et al boosts the Calvin Cycle. Citric acid is a natural part of the Krebs Cycle which uses the sucrose for respiration. Additional citric acid would boost the Kreps cycle.

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1XFluval F&P 2.0; 45 Gallon Tall, 96Watt AH Supply CF 6700K; 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 and (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay

Last edited by Seattle_Aquarist; 08-07-2014 at 01:55 PM. Reason: ..
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-06-2014, 05:56 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zorfox's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 2,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkblade48 View Post
I just wanted to point out that nowhere in the Krebs cycle is Epsom salt involved.

That being said, I would be skeptical of a product like Florin Axis; it seems 'too good to be true.'
Yet that is their claim...

Quote:
A concentrated source of bioavailable carbon, Krebs cycle intermediates, humic & amino acids, and naturally-occurring phytohormones
Quote:
Ingredients in FlorinAxis provide the following:

Citric Acid and Citrate - Organic carbon source and a confirmed stimulator of the Krebs cycle; carbon is required for all organic compounds.

Magnesium - Krebs cycle catalyst, component of chlorophyll, required for enzyme activation.

Humic and Fulvic Acids - Promote nutrient uptake, stimulate root- and overall-growth, aid in photosynthesis, stimulate plant enzyme production.

Kelp - Provides natural phytohormones necessary for plant growth and flowering.

Protein Hydrolysate - A source of slow-release nutrients and soluble peptides and amino acids, the building blocks of plant proteins.
Zorfox is offline  
post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-07-2014, 09:15 AM
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto/Singapore
Posts: 11,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
Yet that is their claim...
Ohhhh, magnesium as a cofactor for enzyme activity; yes this is true.

Krebs cycle intermediate would imply molecules that are directly produced as a result of enzymatic activity on pyruvate.

Magnesium sulfate might be in this product, but would not be considered a Krebs cycle intermediate. Magnesium is required by enzymes for proper enzymatic activity, but the addition of it in this product is questionable at best, as unless you are actively sequestering magnesium (i.e. with a chelator), it is unlikely your water column will be deprived to the point where enzymatic activity ceases.

Anthony


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is offline  
post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-07-2014, 01:14 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zorfox's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 2,105
That makes sense Darkblade.

I wonder how effectively plants can utilize citrate in the water column since citric acid is produced from the oxidation of the pyruvate in the mitochondria.

Basically, glucose crosses the cell membrane. Glycolysis (break the glucose into two pyruvate molecules) occurs in the cytoplasm. Then the pyruvate moves into the mitochondria. We still don't have citric acid. Now we have to oxidize the pyruvates. Finally, after moving into the mitochondria, utilizing multiple enzymes to create the citric acid the kreb cycle can begin. It begins inside the mitochondria not the water column.

I would imagine citric acid would become buffered rather quickly. How much can actually be transported into the mitochondria for the process to start? It doesn't seem a viable way to produce CO2 to me.

The whole concept is like saying third world countries can't starve because we have plenty of food here. Well, the food is here not in the world of mitochondria where it's needed.

All that said, I would have to say that greater than 90% of hobbyists have never heard of the kreb cycle. The terminology sounds "smart" so it must work...right?
Zorfox is offline  
post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-07-2014, 06:29 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (84/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 21,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
That makes sense Darkblade.

I wonder how effectively plants can utilize citrate in the water column since citric acid is produced from the oxidation of the pyruvate in the mitochondria.

Basically, glucose crosses the cell membrane. Glycolysis (break the glucose into two pyruvate molecules) occurs in the cytoplasm. Then the pyruvate moves into the mitochondria. We still don't have citric acid. Now we have to oxidize the pyruvates. Finally, after moving into the mitochondria, utilizing multiple enzymes to create the citric acid the kreb cycle can begin. It begins inside the mitochondria not the water column.

I would imagine citric acid would become buffered rather quickly. How much can actually be transported into the mitochondria for the process to start? It doesn't seem a viable way to produce CO2 to me.

The whole concept is like saying third world countries can't starve because we have plenty of food here. Well, the food is here not in the world of mitochondria where it's needed.

All that said, I would have to say that greater than 90% of hobbyists have never heard of the kreb cycle. The terminology sounds "smart" so it must work...right?
I plan to Krebbs cycle my tank the next time I set it up. I expect to experience no algae as a result.

Hoppy
Hoppy is offline  
post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-07-2014, 11:06 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zorfox's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 2,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
I plan to Krebbs cycle my tank the next time I set it up. I expect to experience no algae as a result.
I like it! lol

If you use Alaskan King Kreb instead of Blue Krebs you can grow an HC carpet in a week. Not to mention your red plants will be much redder.
Zorfox is offline  
post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-08-2014, 04:59 PM
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto/Singapore
Posts: 11,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
That makes sense Darkblade.

I wonder how effectively plants can utilize citrate in the water column since citric acid is produced from the oxidation of the pyruvate in the mitochondria.
Hard to speculate; you could trace the path of the molecule with radioactive C14, but it is more hassle than it is worth.

One could also speculate that the process is done by bacteria, and that the CO2 generated as a byproduct is absorbed by plants as it diffuses across the cellular membrane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
Basically, glucose crosses the cell membrane. Glycolysis (break the glucose into two pyruvate molecules) occurs in the cytoplasm. Then the pyruvate moves into the mitochondria. We still don't have citric acid. Now we have to oxidize the pyruvates. Finally, after moving into the mitochondria, utilizing multiple enzymes to create the citric acid the kreb cycle can begin. It begins inside the mitochondria not the water column.
To be nitpicky, glucose is transported across the cell membrane, and does not simply cross it.

The process you have described for the metabolism of pyruvate is correct for eukaryotes. The process is similar in prokaryotes, but occurs in the cytoplasm and not in the mitochondria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
I would imagine citric acid would become buffered rather quickly. How much can actually be transported into the mitochondria for the process to start? It doesn't seem a viable way to produce CO2 to me.
It would essentially be buffered immediately upon dissolution in water. I believe there is a plasma membrane citrate transporter that would transport citrate across the cellular membrane, but am unsure as to its actual mechanism of action.


So refreshing to think of cellular biology like this; I have been focusing on a completely different thing for the last 2 years, so it's nice to be able to recall these things

Anthony


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome