what to dose after flood from DSM ? Please help.. - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-03-2014, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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Talking what to dose after flood from DSM ? Please help..

Dear all.
Fellows here re-direct me here to ask about Fert. question so here I am.

Recently I've been doing DSM on a 60F tank for SIX months
(Yeah I know, what am I waiting for.... lol)
Here is the spec for now:

- ADA Amazonia II soil Powder type
- Bottom layer with ADA Bacter 100 & Clear Super
- Dragon scale stones

Plants
- HC
- Hairgrass
- repens
- pennywort

Now this is what I going to do after I flood this thing
- Photoperiod cut to 6 hrs a day
- Blast co2 for 6 hrs during photoperiod til drop checker turn yellow.
(I am not going to put any livestock in yet, focus on planet right now)
- Big WC (over 80%) for 1st 3 days
- WC (50%) every other day for a week then once a week

So, here come a question and hope someone can help me out.
- WHEN should I start dosing ?
- WHICH method of dosing do you guys prefer (PPS-Pro or EI)
I know they both had their good result, am just want to get some input.

Please help and many many thanks in advance.

Cheers
J
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-03-2014, 07:18 PM
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After I flooded my HC dry start tank, I didn't even bother with frequent water changes. I just gave it time to acclimate. No CO2 or WCs until a couple of weeks later. Everything was fine; no melting or anything of the sort during that month so I wonder where the fear of melting came from. Probably not enough light reaching the bottom portions of the plant due to very thick growth. Anyway, I only added some fertz just in case it needed it.

However, after adding CO2, plants took off and I had to do a heavy trim of the HC, which is something you'll have to do because light probably isn't going to reach to the bottom of the plant due to the thickness. Heavy trimming of all the plants will induce submergent growth.

Regarding fertilization, since you're using Aquasoil, you should probably read up on how ADA fertilizes, which is different from EI, PPS, et al. ADA relies on the nutrients in the soil for fertilization. It will eventually run out and this will be pretty obvious if you observe plant growth; it will stunt, yellow, or show other signs of deficiencies. This is when you should fertilize. It's highly unlikely it will run out any time soon because the plants you have aren't nutrient-demanding.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-03-2014, 07:58 PM
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I disagree with Solcielo on two areas. First of all, large frequent water changes are very important after starting your tank regardless if you have done dsm or not. You are wanting to prevent algae from getting a head start and by doing large frequent water changes you will be removing any chance of dissolved organics building up. You will almost certainly experience some melt in your plants but just how much it's hard to tell until you actually flood the tank. The other point that I don't agree with is waiting to start ferts. Why would you wait until your plants start showing signs of deficiencies before giving the plant what it needs to be healthy? As for what fertilizing method to use that is something you will have to figure out for yourself. What method works for your routine and maintenance schedule? I personally use the EI method as it works for me and I know my plants are getting all the nutrients they need therefore I'm eliminating that from the equation and then focus on light and co2. As far as I know ADA doesn't rely solely on the nutrients from the Aquasoil either as they have a complete line of ferts that they sell and use in their tanks. And yes all plants demand nutrients. Yes, some more than others but how healthy would you be if you didn't feed yourself? Plants require food the same as we do so why wait until there unhealthy and deficient. That's just an invitation for algae. Algae loves when plants aren't healthy and begin to attack the plant at the first sign of it being unhealthy. That's why you trim unhealthy leaves as they do nothing for the plant except be a place for algae to take a foothold.

I also am a big advocate of frequent water changes and have always been in all my tanks from reefs, fish only tank, and now planted tanks. Everything about water changes is beneficial to not only your plants but also your livestock. If you want to not have to worry if your plants are getting everything they need, nutrient wise and focus your attention on getting co2/light right then I would suggest the EI method. Here's a great thread explaining how this method works and may help you in deciding what method works for you.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...thod+explained

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-03-2014, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
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Talking Thank for the advise !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
After I flooded my HC dry start tank, I didn't even bother with frequent water changes. I just gave it time to acclimate. No CO2 or WCs until a couple of weeks later. Everything was fine; no melting or anything of the sort during that month so I wonder where the fear of melting came from. Probably not enough light reaching the bottom portions of the plant due to very thick growth. Anyway, I only added some fertz just in case it needed it.

However, after adding CO2, plants took off and I had to do a heavy trim of the HC, which is something you'll have to do because light probably isn't going to reach to the bottom of the plant due to the thickness. Heavy trimming of all the plants will induce submergent growth.

Regarding fertilization, since you're using Aquasoil, you should probably read up on how ADA fertilizes, which is different from EI, PPS, et al. ADA relies on the nutrients in the soil for fertilization. It will eventually run out and this will be pretty obvious if you observe plant growth; it will stunt, yellow, or show other signs of deficiencies. This is when you should fertilize. It's highly unlikely it will run out any time soon because the plants you have aren't nutrient-demanding.
Am totally forgot the ADA fertilizes.
I noticed you are my neighbor. are you around AFA ?
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-03-2014, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ua hua View Post
I disagree with Solcielo on two areas. First of all, large frequent water changes are very important after starting your tank regardless if you have done dsm or not. You are wanting to prevent algae from getting a head start and by doing large frequent water changes you will be removing any chance of dissolved organics building up. You will almost certainly experience some melt in your plants but just how much it's hard to tell until you actually flood the tank. The other point that I don't agree with is waiting to start ferts. Why would you wait until your plants start showing signs of deficiencies before giving the plant what it needs to be healthy? As for what fertilizing method to use that is something you will have to figure out for yourself. What method works for your routine and maintenance schedule? I personally use the EI method as it works for me and I know my plants are getting all the nutrients they need therefore I'm eliminating that from the equation and then focus on light and co2. As far as I know ADA doesn't rely solely on the nutrients from the Aquasoil either as they have a complete line of ferts that they sell and use in their tanks. And yes all plants demand nutrients. Yes, some more than others but how healthy would you be if you didn't feed yourself? Plants require food the same as we do so why wait until there unhealthy and deficient. That's just an invitation for algae. Algae loves when plants aren't healthy and begin to attack the plant at the first sign of it being unhealthy. That's why you trim unhealthy leaves as they do nothing for the plant except be a place for algae to take a foothold.

I also am a big advocate of frequent water changes and have always been in all my tanks from reefs, fish only tank, and now planted tanks. Everything about water changes is beneficial to not only your plants but also your livestock. If you want to not have to worry if your plants are getting everything they need, nutrient wise and focus your attention on getting co2/light right then I would suggest the EI method. Here's a great thread explaining how this method works and may help you in deciding what method works for you.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...thod+explained
I think you got one point that I think exact same is I wanna focus my attention to co2 and light.
and seems EI suit me more.
I am also a big advocate of WC. hence you see my plan for the first few week.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-03-2014, 08:50 PM
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In my experience, frequent water changes has done nothing to prevent algae so there are probably many variables at work. I don't bombard my tanks with a lot of light which may be why WCs don't have any correlation with algae in my tanks.

Also, I've never experienced any kind of plant melt with all of the plants I've ever had and all of them were terrestrially grown except for most of the stem plants.

As for ADA dosing, they sell fertz but their instructions follow a time period when the nutrients in the soil approximately run out.

But as for all of this, since you're new to it, you should experiment. I still experiment trying to see how plants respond best to the amounts of certain nutrients. Many deficiencies can be easily corrected just by adding back the deficient nutrient. Waiting for deficiencies allows you to learn a lot about specific plant requirements as well as just how low you can dose. That's what I do whenever I get a new plant.

Lastly, check your water quality report from your utilities company. If you have Hetch-Hetchy water, it's pretty clean and many plants thrive in it, especially the ones you have. Some other cities in the BA have very hard water and many plants struggle to grow in it.

So basically:
1st, check WQ report for your tap to know what's in it.
2nd, experiment to learn about plant requirements. This isn't for those who subscribe to the KISS principle, however.

Addendum regarding EI: a lot of people think EI requires large WCs. This is not true. Tom Barr said many times that if you want to KISS, use EI and do large WCs. It's easy and requires very little effort to follow instructions. But if you slowly dial back the amount of certain fertz until deficiency occurs, you'll have found the lower limit of the plants. Just increase it back one level before and plants will be fine and you can go much longer without having to do WCs.

Bump:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Bunny View Post
Am totally forgot the ADA fertilizes.
I noticed you are my neighbor. are you around AFA ?
Yes, I am. I need to go there to buy a new plant soon.

Anyway, if you need fertz, visit aquariumfertilizer.com and you can buy some dry fertz. Skip the magnesium sulfate ($3) as it's cheaper to buy it at Safeway (4lbs/$4=$1/lb).

You'll need:
KNO3 (nitrogen and potassium)
KH2PO4 (phosphorus)
K2SO4 (potassium)
CSM+B (micronutrients)
CaSO4 (calcium)
MgSO4 (Magnesium)
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-03-2014, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
In my experience, frequent water changes has done nothing to prevent algae so there are probably many variables at work. I don't bombard my tanks with a lot of light which may be why WCs don't have any correlation with algae in my tanks.

Also, I've never experienced any kind of plant melt with all of the plants I've ever had and all of them were terrestrially grown except for most of the stem plants.

As for ADA dosing, they sell fertz but their instructions follow a time period when the nutrients in the soil approximately run out.

But as for all of this, since you're new to it, you should experiment. I still experiment trying to see how plants respond best to the amounts of certain nutrients. Many deficiencies can be easily corrected just by adding back the deficient nutrient. Waiting for deficiencies allows you to learn a lot about specific plant requirements as well as just how low you can dose. That's what I do whenever I get a new plant.

Lastly, check your water quality report from your utilities company. If you have Hetch-Hetchy water, it's pretty clean and many plants thrive in it, especially the ones you have. Some other cities in the BA have very hard water and many plants struggle to grow in it.

So basically:
1st, check WQ report for your tap to know what's in it.
2nd, experiment to learn about plant requirements. This isn't for those who subscribe to the KISS principle, however.

Addendum regarding EI: a lot of people think EI requires large WCs. This is not true. Tom Barr said many times that if you want to KISS, use EI and do large WCs. It's easy and requires very little effort to follow instructions. But if you slowly dial back the amount of certain fertz until deficiency occurs, you'll have found the lower limit of the plants. Just increase it back one level before and plants will be fine and you can go much longer without having to do WCs.

Bump:

Yes, I am. I need to go there to buy a new plant soon.

Anyway, if you need fertz, visit aquariumfertilizer.com and you can buy some dry fertz. Skip the magnesium sulfate ($3) as it's cheaper to buy it at Safeway (4lbs/$4=$1/lb).

You'll need:
KNO3 (nitrogen and potassium)
KH2PO4 (phosphorus)
K2SO4 (potassium)
CSM+B (micronutrients)
CaSO4 (calcium)
MgSO4 (Magnesium)
Curious is K2SO4 (potassium), CaSO4 (calcium), and MgSO4 (Magnesium)necessary, just asking cuz ive pretty much have been only dosing KNO3, KH2PO4 and CSM+B? Also someone mind posting or pming be what calcium and magnesium deficiency looks like lmao im to lazy to search for it atm. Lastly Solcielo, mind checking to see if they sell rabbit snails there at afa if you do end up going? Im too lazy to drive all the way there to check....


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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-03-2014, 09:06 PM
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I add K2SO4 because certain plants use it up a lot more than others such Hygrophila pinnatifida. If I only dose KNO3 and KH2PO4, the leaves look like they've been the victim of repeated drive-by's. Even adding a 35+ppm of total K per week, I still get pinholes. Absolute K hog. Adding Ca is necessary because the tap doesn't contain enough for a very densely planted tank and will show deficiencies with small leaves and stunted growth.

You can buy Sulawesi rabbit snails at 6th Avenue. It was there the last time I was there around a month ago. Those are really big snails! But you should call ahead to see if they still have them.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-03-2014, 09:14 PM
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Awesome, thanks for the heads up and info

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
I add K2SO4 because certain plants use it up a lot more than others such Hygrophila pinnatifida. If I only dose KNO3 and KH2PO4, the leaves look like they've been the victim of repeated drive-by's. Even adding a 35+ppm of total K per week, I still get pinholes. Absolute K hog. Adding Ca is necessary because the tap doesn't contain enough for a very densely planted tank and will show deficiencies with small leaves and stunted growth.

You can buy Sulawesi rabbit snails at 6th Avenue. It was there the last time I was there around a month ago. Those are really big snails! But you should call ahead to see if they still have them.


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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-03-2014, 10:11 PM
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ADA themselves use large frequent water changes and yes controlling doc does help prevent algae from appearing. Another thing ADA does is they don't wait until plant develop deficiencies or until the soil depletes its nutrients to dose ferts. There is an older thread that an ADA distributor gave step by step instructions to starting a tank including how frequently to do water changes and when to dose. Telling a newbie to planted tanks to wait until their plants become deficient is horrible advice. I'm pretty sure their trying to grow healthy plants and avoid an algae outbreak so why would you tell them to wait until a plant looks sick and unhealthy to do anything. Prevention rather than trying to fix a problem after it occurs would be the appropriate advice.

The problem with getting advice on an Internet forum is there is only you yourself to make the determination if the advice you are getting is sound or comes from someone with actual real life experience or not.

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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-04-2014, 01:16 PM
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No matter whose advice you follow I still think its imperative that you blast it with CO2 from the start. Make the drop checker nice and yellow - these plants are used to atmospheric CO2 levels which will no longer be available...

I personally started dosing with 1/4 - 1/2 EI from the start (my carpet / plant load was not as heavy as yours though), blasted CO2 and all went well. Plants started growing better once submerged lol


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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-04-2014, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klibs View Post
No matter whose advice you follow I still think its imperative that you blast it with CO2 from the start. Make the drop checker nice and yellow - these plants are used to atmospheric CO2 levels which will no longer be available...

I personally started dosing with 1/4 - 1/2 EI from the start (my carpet / plant load was not as heavy as yours though), blasted CO2 and all went well. Plants started growing better once submerged lol
+1 of that !!!!!
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-07-2019, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klibs View Post
No matter whose advice you follow I still think its imperative that you blast it with CO2 from the start. Make the drop checker nice and yellow - these plants are used to atmospheric CO2 levels which will no longer be available...

I personally started dosing with 1/4 - 1/2 EI from the start (my carpet / plant load was not as heavy as yours though), blasted CO2 and all went well. Plants started growing better once submerged lol
I also agree with this suggestion.
The reason of a DSM is exactly to give to the plants the maximum amount possible of CO2 (free air). Instead in the water the concentration of diluted CO2 is very little and only due to the air-water surface interchange. Adding the maximum amount possible of CO2 and reducing slowly gives the plants the time to adapt to the new environment.
Plants and Algae are always fighting for the food and this is the reason you should keep the plant in their best shape. If they stop to use the available resources, algae will win and they will overcome plants. Also in my (little) experience I found that algae occurred after a big change in the enviroment (also a big water changes) becuase their "metabolism" is faster than their enemies (plants).
My 2 cents.
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