Is this a deficiency or overdose?? (CSM-B Toxicity) - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-27-2014, 04:32 AM Thread Starter
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Is this a deficiency or overdose?? (CSM-B Toxicity)

Backstory: Started a modified EI routine seven days ago. By modified I mean using the 55 gal amounts in my 75 gal. As per Zorfox' thread here. 3x week. Ferts are the EI package form GLA, + 1/16 tsp Iron on micro days. Tank has med light (2 T5HO) and moderate, but consistent levels of DIY Co2. Heavily planted.

Dosing routine as follows
day 1 - macro
day 2 - micro + fe
repeat
repeat
day 7 - 50% Wc

Prior to that, I'd been using Seachem liquid N P K, comp and fe, @ 1.5x "beginner dose." Same schedule.

I suspected a potassium or phosphate deficiency in the weeks leading up to starting EI. Old growth specifically was looking rough, w/pinholes appearing as as sort of a last symptom. These arent the greatest pics, but you can maybe tell from the old growth what I mean.

Current dilemma relates specifically to the new growth now, (meaning this appeared within the last week since beginning EI) and for reference, old growth from the weeks leading up..






Just a guess, but could I be overdosing fe??

Edit: Also it may be worth noting about the L glandulosa, 24 hours after the 2nd micro dose is when the saggy, drooping leaves showed up. First only one stem was doing it. Then, the day after the 3rd dose of micro, two others were also like that.

Last edited by burr740; 11-24-2015 at 06:04 PM. Reason: Title change for clarity and search function
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post #2 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-28-2014, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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So nobody wants to take a crack at this one, lol?

Anyway, I did a 75% water change yesterday, and today added the same dose of macro. Im thinking about skipping the Fe for a while and see how it goes. May also go with only 2x weekly dose for a while, instead of 3x. Probably just observe what the plants look like on day 3/4, and test nitrates and phos then too, for maybe an idea of how rapidly everything is being used.

From what I understand there's only a very few things that will cause problems if overdosed (at the relative amounts Im dealing with). It doesnt seem like there should be that much too much of anything at this point, but idk. My tap water is really hard if that makes any difference. Maybe it was just too much of a change all at once?

I dont think it's a big problem or anything, just a little something needs tweaking. I figured somebody around here would have an idea maybe what is happening.


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post #3 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-28-2014, 10:38 AM
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Maybe could increase the CO2 ?
Ensure good flow throughout the tank.?
CO2 on timer to come on 2 hours before lighting?
Were it me, I would add more macro's a bit.no worries doing so with weekly water change.
If none of what I mentioned appeals to you ,then reducing light and thereby reducing demand from plants would be my move.
Less light,less demand for everything else and slower growth.
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post #4 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-28-2014, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the suggestions. Im almost certain it's something to do with the ferts though, considering the time line and reaction.


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post #5 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-28-2014, 03:07 PM
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Co2 is the main problem. You trying to compensate by overdosing is another.


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post #6 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-28-2014, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkookm View Post
Co2 is the main problem...
Yup.
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post #7 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-28-2014, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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Co2 is the main problem. You trying to compensate by overdosing is another.
It may very well be, but I dont see how I can be Co2 deficient now when up until two months ago, I didnt have any - same plants, same light.

This is not a high-light driven tank, it's in the low end of medium at best. It's the same light I had for almost 5 months with nothing but Excel and Flourish comp. Everything grew fine, except as plant mass effectively tripled, I began to notice what looked like a macro deficiency.

Enter Seachem liquid N P K Fe. These helped a lot, for a brief period of time, @ around 1.5 "beginner dose."

Couple weeks later, added DIY Co2. (yes I know the consensus, not good for a tank this size) My system is very sound though, and any is better than none - as long as it is consistent - right? Im doing thee 2 liter bottles staggered 1 week apart. There's no up and downs. Degas and PH/KH tests indicate in the 20-25 ppm range, although I suspect it's not that high. Drop checker is green though so it may be. Here's a build thread with full details. Regardless, plants absolutely blew up, changed color, etc. Only thing after a few weeks the macro deficiency got worse and worse. Which came as no surprise after the Co2 accelerated growth. Those seachem liquids are incredibly weak, esp at the dose I was using.

Which brings us to one week ago, dry ferts arrived and I started EI routine based on 55 gal levels. My tank is 75 gal btw, so obviously Im not trying to "compensate by overdosing", as you put it.


If there was a deficiency, then things should have gotten better. I believe the slight potassium symptoms are secondary and unrelated. The negative response was so dramatic, and happened so fast is what makes me suspect toxicity. If low Co2 was the problem, I doubt it'd make leaves wither and start dropping within a matter of days. Would it?

Regardless, Im going to do a full 75 gallon dose for a week or two and see what happens. Things will either get better or worse.

Thanks for the suggestions.


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Last edited by burr740; 08-19-2014 at 08:19 AM. Reason: .
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post #8 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-28-2014, 10:54 PM
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If you're dosing EI I doubt you're having a deficiency, especially at lower light levels. If you're dosing EI then you're doing weekly water changes which kind of negates the idea of an overdose. As your plant mass increases, the amount of C needed also increases as does competition between plants for the amount of C present. Increased plant mass can also cause stagnant areas preventing some plants from receiving enough CO2. What may have been enough CO2 in the beginning may not be later on.
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post #9 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-29-2014, 01:27 AM
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The thing that is in least supply for the plants is what will limit the plants growth rate. That can be light, which is the best way to limit the growth, or it can be CO2, which is the most likely to be in short supply, or it can be any of the NPK and trace elements, which is very unlikely if you are following the EI dosing method. When the plants have too little nitrate, for example, their resulting slowed growth can hide a shortage of iron, for example, or CO2. When you fix the first shortage, the others then limit the growth. By following the EI method you can be sure none of the basic plant needs other than CO2 or light will be limiting the growth. So, it is then easy to eliminate the limitations - increase the CO2 supply and/or increase the light supply. But, ideally you want to end up with the limited light being what limits the plant growth rate.

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post #10 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-29-2014, 05:29 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info guys. I do understand the three legged stool of light/nutrients/Co2. It may be the latter, if not now eventually, but I feel like at this point it's fert related since there were early signs of deficiency before adding Co2, which then seemed to snowball with the accelerated growth rate.

How long does it take for a nutrient deficiency to correct itself? It's only been a week, in other words 3 doses, which to begin with were based on a 30% smaller tank.


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post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-29-2014, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Thanks for the suggestions. Im almost certain it's something to do with the ferts though, considering the time line and reaction.
If I had a nickel every time some said that ....

If you had limitatings prior, then you also had issues with your CO2, what happens when you have no limiting levels of ferts?

the CO2 issue is highlighted. EI simply rules out the ferts and makes them independent. That is the utility with EI, it shows if the CO2 is well run and other factors(Good filtration, water changes etc). If not, then you will get those tale tell signs.
I dose something close to your routine, maybe a bit more, but I have more light also.




Point is, ferts are very easy to rule out, but if you another issue, say CO2, then..............well.............you are guessing and making a "bad" guess.
But if someone adds those same ferts, and does NOT have issues, then you can say, at least independent of OTHER factors, that the ferts are not the issue.

Wildly popular to blame ferts, but IME, I've seen no cases to date where they have issues ....other than simply not adding enough of them. And that's going on about 20+ years........




Regards,
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post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-29-2014, 06:13 AM Thread Starter
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what happens when you have no limiting levels of ferts?
In this case, we dont know because I just started adding adequate amounts of everything. That is my point. We'll soon find out though. If it turns out more Co2 is needed, then I'll throw another bottle or two in the mix, or bite the bullet on a pressurized system, which I plan on doing anyway. Was hoping to hold off til Christmas and make my girlfriend can buy it for me though, lol


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Last edited by burr740; 08-18-2014 at 05:37 PM. Reason: .
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post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-29-2014, 06:32 AM
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Did you increase your CO2 intake as you got more plant mass? You probably had a nutrient deficiency at first but now that the plants have all the nutrients they could want available they will also want more CO2.
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post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-22-2015, 05:06 PM Thread Starter
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15 Months later update. The problem was overdose of csm-b.

Went to pressurized CO2 shortly after starting this thread. The problem was never CO2.

After several months of trial and error, and many fried plants, I became certain that either traces or Fe was indeed the problem.

Long story short, I went about 3 months with no micros at all. Everything grew fine again. Only when I started to notice a deficiency did I bring csmb and fe back into the mix.

One confounding factor was that I'd used a considerable amount of Osmocote+ to supplement the inert blasting sand substrate. I suspected that was causing EI levels of trace to become too much.

But now, Im not even sure the Osmocote+ made any difference, because there's hardly any in there now and I still cannot dose much csmb.

The routine that has been working well for the past few months is csmb dosed for .1 ppm Fe 3x week, and .06 ppm Fe dtpa 11% dosed almost every day.

75 gallon tank
Densely planted
120-ish PAR at sub
1.3-1.4 PH drop with CO2
KH 6-7
GH 8-9.

I use straight tap, which the water report claims 70 something ppm Ca and 8 Mg, so I add 10 ppm Mg via Epsom salt with each water change. Although I cannot say for sure if it makes any difference.

Macros dosed 3x week - 7.5 ppm N, 2.5 ppm P, 5 ppm K2S04.
Micros as listed above.
Calculated for 65 gallons.

Weekly 60-70% WC


Figured I would update this since trace toxicity seems to be a hot topic atm.

TIFWIW


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Last edited by burr740; 11-22-2015 at 05:26 PM. Reason: .
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post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-22-2015, 05:33 PM
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That's good to know. Since my tap has a GH=2, 15ppm of Ca, 5ppm of Mg, toxicity occurs at 0.1ppm of Fe per week. So one dose of 0.1ppm of Fe from CSM+B is toxic in such soft water. I wish I knew that this was the case because I would have saved so much fertilizers if I didn't dose so much.
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