Question about PMDD and getting the dosing right. - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 12:48 AM Thread Starter
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Question about PMDD and getting the dosing right.

Hi everyone, been reading here for a while now and finally came around to registering since i have a question i hope you guys can answer.

I have a planted tank at 450L (119 US.gal).
It is moderately planted would say 60% of the tank is planted with a mixture of slow growing, medium growing and a few fast growing plants.

About the tank:
4 x T5s at 54watts each (planning on building a led fixture in the near future)
Pressurized CO2 running through a JBL controller with a PH probe.
Eheim 2080 canister filter
50-60% water change every week
Dosing PMDD
Tank has been running for almost a year

Water values (measured today)
PH - 7.1 (set on the controller to achieve a CO2 solution of 30ppm)
KH - 8,5-9;ish
NH4 - <0.05 ppm
NO2 - <0.025 ppm
NO3 - 20-30 ppm
FE - Not visible so assuming zero or close to that
PO4 - 1,5> ppm

So what is clear is that PO4 is really high and FE is non existing. I am mixing my own PMDD in accordance with this site
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/PMDD.htm
25g Potassium Nitrate
5.8g Potassium Phosphate (monobasic)
11g Potassium Sulphate
20g Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (Epsom Salts)
500 ml distilled water

And in a separate container i am mixing my micros, a solution i bought here in Sweden called MiPlus PRO (should contain more iron).
25ml of that solution in 500ml of water (according to the bottle)
The bottle itself says it contains the following.
FE 38.0
MN 9.6
CU 0.48
Zn 2.40
B 3.50
Mo 0,70

So I have been dosing daily according to this formula
2 ml of Macros solution per 10 gallons (US) or 40 litres
1 ml of Micros solution per 10 gallons (US) or 40 litres
and doing a 50-60% water change every week.
So now I am at a loss, not sure how to correct the problems, I am assuming i should start lowering the Macro dose and upping the Micro dose. I don't wanna mess anything up so i though i should ask here first perhaps. To see if anyone have any tips or might spot something that is totally out of place in the info above?

I might also add that i have some issues with holes in the leaves of some plants mainly my echinodorus and my Nymphoides sp. 'Taiwan'.
Something i never had issues with during the first six months of the tanks run time.
I also have some dark green algae type on some plants (older leaves) that is really hard to remove.
If I have forgotten something important please let me know, and sorry if my grammar is bad, Engrish is not my native language!
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 01:13 AM
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Holes in the leaves might be potassium deficiency.

Nitrate (NO3) might be a bit too high, but not so much I would really worry.

If you trace mineral mix already has iron, then you might find another source of just iron, especially chelated iron, and add that.

I see you are adding magnesium. What is the level of calcium? Is there a deficiency of magnesium?
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 01:25 AM Thread Starter
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Hi and thanks for the reply, I do not have any tests for Calcium so I do not know to be honest. Not sure if i have a magnesium deficiency either? Just followed the PMDD mix from the site I linked. Should i remove the MGSO4 from the next batch?
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 11:07 AM
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Hi neighbour :-)
Take a look at this thread where I got some help with the MiPlus Pro micro-solution.
Zorfox said he would add Mipro Plus to his calculator at rota.la, but so far he hasn't.

Humans may rule the world...but bacteria run it..
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghia View Post
Hi neighbour :-)
Take a look at this thread where I got some help with the MiPlus Pro micro-solution.
Zorfox said he would add Mipro Plus to his calculator at rota.la, but so far he hasn't.
Sorry Ghia. I forgot. I just added MiPlus. It may take a day or two before you see it. Btw, that's not my calculator. It's an open source project started by Wet. I'm just one of the collaborators.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 02:11 PM
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Zorfox : And a damn good project, too...extremely useful ! And sorry, the comment and ref to you wasn't meant as a nag, heheh...anyhow, tnx for adding it :-)

Humans may rule the world...but bacteria run it..
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the link Ghia, some useful info there. I think I know how to mix the macros now, will have a 3 pump dosing system. Will dose from 3 1,5 Liter bottles according to EI and will dose on a daily basis. I am still a bit confused about the micros though. Just contacted the guy supplying miplus pro and numbers presented on the bottle is in its concentrated form. But in the other thread you guys said 2.5ml per 50 gallons wich would mean I would have to dose around 3 ml per day of the concentrate wich sounds a bit much to me? When you follow pmdd you dilute 25ml of concentrate into 500ml of water and dose 10ml of that per day. Am I missing something?
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 04:18 PM
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The higher amount is based on the EI method which suggests targeting iron to a level of 0.5ppm per dose. That amount is also dosed 3 times per week unlike PMDD. PMDD is about 1/5 of that at 0.1ppm.

EI dosing (3 times a week),
To raise Fe 0.5 ppm in your 110 gallon tank you will need to add 5.479 ML of MiPlus Pro. That will provide the following per dose,
B 0.046
Cu 0.006
Fe 0.5
Mn 0.126
Mo 0.009
Zn 0.032

PMDD Dosing (daily),
To raise Fe 0.1 ppm in your 110 gallon tank you will need to add 1.096 ML of MiPlus Pro. That will provide the following per dose,
B 0.009
Cu 0.001
Fe 0.1
Mn 0.025
Mo 0.002
Zn 0.006

EDIT: Forgot to add this link
Here is a thread that lists EI dosing for common sized tanks.
Dry dosing and Nutrient Solution Recipes
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 04:55 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you very much that clears it up. And I am guessing for a daily dosing I just cut the amount you said by half?
Now that u think about it that seems reasonable, the 500ml bottle will last for 200 days.
Thanks again!!
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fissure View Post
Thank you very much that clears it up. And I am guessing for a daily dosing I just cut the amount you said by half?
Now that u think about it that seems reasonable, the 500ml bottle will last for 200 days.
Thanks again!!
Yup. You could even get away with 1/3 of that for daily dosing. If in the future you see signs of iron deficiency (I doubt you will) you can add additional DTPA iron instead of increasing all the other trace elements.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2014, 11:15 PM
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FYI. The MiPlus products are now live at YANC. They're listed under the premixed section.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-01-2014, 02:37 AM Thread Starter
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Many many thanks for that! Great work with the calc!
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-01-2014, 03:48 AM Thread Starter
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So i finished my calculations with help of the YANC.

So for my 450L i came up with this for a Daily dosage targeting Estimative Index.

Will be mixing it in 3 x 1,5 Liter bottles
Dosing will be 30ml from each bottle every day.

This is what i get that should go in each bottle

Bottle #1
KNO3 - 120g

Bottle #2
KH2PO4 - 20g

Bottle #3 (Will be mixing in the micros since i only have 3 pumps)
K2SO4 - 150g
MiPlus Pro - 125 ml

So i hope this is correct, if anyone feel like double checking that would be much appreciated!
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-01-2014, 12:27 PM
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You obviously figured out how to use that calculator. Good job!

The only real problem you have is with the K2SO4. First, the amount you listed will not dissolve. When using the calculator look on the right side below the elements. You'll see this in red "The solubility of K2SO4 at room temperature is 120 mg/mL. You should adjust your dose."

Secondly, in most situations there is enough potassium in the KNO3 so K2SO4 is optional. If you see potassium deficiency problems then you can always add the difference which in your case would be 60 grams which will provide 1.2 ppm per dose.

This is not a real problem but the actual amount of MiPlus would be 100 ml not 125 ml. As long as you are doing your 50% weekly water changes 125 ml won't hurt anything but it's not needed. The 100 ml is well above what the plants will need to begin with which is the idea behind non-limiting nutrients.

EDIT: Sorry I forgot to mention this. Since I can't find the chemicals used in the MiPlus I would mix the K2SO4 (if you do) with the KNO3. That will prevent any unknown reactions. You also may want to add a few teaspoons of vinegar to each bottle before mixing. It will destroy the KH which could lead to problems if it's high as well as preventing mold and/or fungus.

Last edited by Zorfox; 07-01-2014 at 12:46 PM. Reason: addition
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-01-2014, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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Mkay then I will follow your advice then. Will try a dose of 60g k2so4 in bottle one (the guy selling miplus recommends mixing the k2so4 with the miplus though) and lower the dosage of miplus pro in bottle 3. Want to give a big thanks to everyone for helping me with this, especially you Zorfox! Feels like I finally got a grip on the dosing levels
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