Base EI Stock Solution - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-21-2014, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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Base EI Stock Solution

Does anyone have a simple base stock solution for 30mL dose using a 500 mL container that is measured out in grams. I don't need anything fancy, just something simple to get started that I can alter from there.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-22-2014, 12:32 AM
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-22-2014, 08:09 PM
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Why not dry dose? I still don't get why folks want to create complicated liquid solutions with ferts they can dose dry.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-23-2014, 12:02 PM
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In 500ml add the following. Dose at 2ml per 10 gallons. Mix Plantex separately.

116 gm of KNO3
18 gm of KH2PO4
73 gm of Plantex CSM+B



Quote:
Originally Posted by TekWarren View Post
Why not dry dose? I still don't get why folks want to create complicated liquid solutions with ferts they can dose dry.
Dry dosing shouldn't be done on smaller tanks IMO. Measuring 1/32 of a dry fertilizer has a huge margin for error. Mixing solutions is not complicated at all and the accuracy is much higher. Even with large tanks many prefer using metered pumps from a bottle. It's just as quick and you don't need to measure amounts every dose or load a medication box every week.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-23-2014, 05:27 PM
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The smaller tanks point makes sense to me I guess. Just that the point of EI is to be an estimate of necessary nutrients...and an over estimation target at that. I can see the where very small nano tanks might be hard to dose dry. I dry dose my nano but being a low tech I'm basically sprinkling a tiny bit of CSM+B each week and very randomly and spread apart a small dose of the rest of my EI fert gamut.

Not for arguments sake but I personally just can see how it would be beneficial for me (myself) to do anything other than dry dose my main tanks at home using pill organizers. I can measure each days dose quite accurately with spoons and just dump each morning at 5:30am rather try and fiddle with a liquid measurement while still half asleep. There is literally no chance making a mistake on measurements with dry, and if you need to adjust your not stuck with a bottle of something you premixed.

-Just my opinion and thought process, folks should do what works for them and they are comfortable with.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2014, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
In 500ml add the following. Dose at 2ml per 10 gallons. Mix Plantex separately.

116 gm of KNO3
18 gm of KH2PO4
73 gm of Plantex CSM+B
How often do you dose this solution? When you say mix plantex separately, do you mean that they each have their own 500 ml bottle? May be stupid questions, but I'm new to EI dosing (just ordered my dry ferts today)
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2014, 06:57 AM
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You can mix KNO3, KH2PO4 and K2SO4 in one bottle.
You should not add iron to any mix with phosphorus, so CSM+B and chelated iron would be mixed in a second bottle.

Dose macros (N, P, K) 3 days per week
Dose micros (CSM+B, Fe) the other 3 days per week.
Water change on the 7th day.

Here is how to make your own solutions:
1) How much will you give to all your tanks in one week? (put that much in a bottle)
2) What is a convenient amount to dose daily? (I dose 1ml per 3 gallons of tank size)
Multiply the amount you want to dose daily per gallon times the total gallons of all your tank times 3 to get how much water to add to the bottles.

example:
I have about 700 gallons worth of tanks to dose. I multiplied out the EI dosing for 100 gallon tanks x 7 to get quantities of each fertilizer to use in a week.
I want to squirt 1ml of fertilizer per 3 gallons of tank size, and do this 3 times per week for one week.
So I need 700 ml of water in my mix.

I can make a 2 liter mix with 3 times the fertilizer and 3 times the water. (2 liters is 2000 ml, and is close enough for me!) This will last 3 weeks.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2014, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apstreck View Post
How often do you dose this solution? When you say mix plantex separately, do you mean that they each have their own 500 ml bottle? May be stupid questions, but I'm new to EI dosing (just ordered my dry ferts today)
You dose something every day using the EI method. You alternate between micros and macros. Here is a post about the EI method. It may help make sense of all of this.

As Darkblade asked, What size is your tank? This is important to calculate an appropriate dose. I merely gave you a basic EI solution since we have no specifics on your tank. Also, it would help to know your lighting level, whether you use CO2 or not and how often (how much) you do water changes. All of this changes the dosing amount and frequencies.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2014, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TekWarren View Post
Why not dry dose? I still don't get why folks want to create complicated liquid solutions with ferts they can dose dry.
I'm with you, but it seems some need to make things hard. I get the need if using a dosing pump, but if you are not why bother.

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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2014, 05:51 PM
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The tank I'm going to start dosing is a 10gallon, 18" finnex ray2, pressurized co2. Planning on 50% once a week. Right now I've got some HC that I just put in, micro sword, a java fern that I cut down to 2 leaves, and a newly sprouted red tiger lotus.
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2014, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
You dose something every day using the EI method. You alternate between micros and macros. Here is a post about the EI method. It may help make sense of all of this.

As Darkblade asked, What size is your tank? This is important to calculate an appropriate dose. I merely gave you a basic EI solution since we have no specifics on your tank. Also, it would help to know your lighting level, whether you use CO2 or not and how often (how much) you do water changes. All of this changes the dosing amount and frequencies.
No you don't, I dose 2-3 x a week, EI has always done this, folks who like daily dosing, I suggested taking the week or two week's totals and dividing by 7 or 14 respectively. You can split it up any which way that gets the job done, but EI has always been a dry dose 2-3x a week type of thing.


Liquid calculations mess people up generally.

Once you figure it out, it's easy thereafter, but the dry dosing is as simple as it gets. Error on smaller tanks?

None I've ever had issues with using dry dosing personally.
But some folks seem to want precision when precision is not required.

Certainly no harm in that desire, but it's just not a requirement.

I kept a few 2 gallon and 6 gallon tanks for 2-3 years when I lived in Davis, CA. I never used liquid dosing.

Now I could make the argument for the traces, but again, even on larger tanks.....you can do dry, but mostly by convention and going from Tropica Master Grow and the CMS+B, I still make and use liquid for the traces.
So this is not consistent with total dry dosing zealotry
There is some hypocrisy but as said, back at the time, there was a lot of folks not using CMS+B, over time, it replaced TMG due to cost and mixing some DTPA in with CMS+B. At that point, no one could really note any significant changes.
So it's mostly an old "artifact" from the past.
Should we change it? Naww...not really.
Should folks all switch to liquid dosing?
Probably not.
For some, they find it easier.
Others, nope.

Traces tend to take awhile to dissolve, and I mix other stuff in there also, so while not needed, no harm in doing that either. I'll tend to dose the traces a bit more frequently than the macros which I rarely every dose more than 2x a week.

It's an extra step, so liquids or a two part liquid dosing is okay I suppose, but it's not part of EI really, that is part of PMDD, EI just used that same approach but to many, the liquid stuff and mls, ppm's etc, made it tougher, and more hassle to understand, so EI just kept it as simple as possible.

Add 2-3 powders, add a few mls of traces based on your tank size, do a good sized water at the end of the week. Folks have long complicated simple stuff.

If you over dose, not a big deal, if you under dose a little, no big deal.
That's the point. I've suggested this(liquids) for folks with smaller takes if they WANT more precision, but I've yet to show it's a requirement.
Does not hurt either way. Nor is either way superior either.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-25-2014, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain
No you don't, I dose 2-3 x a week, EI has always done this
This is news to me. I honestly thought EI was an alternating daily regime. Thanks for the clarification. Iíll certainly make that correction in future posts. I do however feel that a daily routine is a better option. Doing something every day reduces the chances of forgetting to dose. It also reduces fluctuations which may have impacts on sensitive inhabitants. Clearly just my opinion, but I will justify this change from the original EI method in subsequent posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain
Error on smaller tanks?
Yes. The margin for error increases the smaller the dose gets. The smallest measuring spoon is 1/64 of a teaspoon. When you start measuring dry fertilizers in that quantity, particle size makes a significant difference. Not all fertilizers are of equal consistency so this alone increases the margin for error. Level measure or rounded? Simple things like this will easily double the dose.

That said, a full EI dose of KH2PO4 for a 10 gallon is 70mg. Thatís 1/80 of a teaspoon. Weíre already behind the eight ball here since the measure is a fraction of the smallest spoon we have. A two gallon tank? Roughly 1/400 of a teaspoon .

I understand your logic that we donít need great precision. I completely agree. However, the margin for error on small tanks is simply to large to use dry dosing IMO. Iíll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain
dry dosing zealotry
I got a chuckle out of that phrase. I will be stealing that one.

When itís all said and done dry versus solutions is a personal preference. They both work. Solutions have more precision. I like accuracy. I happen to like solutions for tanks under 20-30 gallons for reasons stated above. Using a metered pump bottle is as simple as it gets for me. Mixing solutions is quite simple. It merely requires a little thought upfront. Learning to do the math or using a calculator take 5 minutes. Sometimes it amazes me how this confuses people although it does more often than not.

Apstreck,

With exception of the HC your plants are rather undemanding. With those tank parameters I would use the full EI dose. As stated I would personally dose daily using the schedule posted above. Below are the amounts to add to your 500ml container. Each dose is 30ml as you originally requested. The numbers listed for all of the elements are a total of one dose of each. They came from this Windows based calculator. You can mix the KH2PO4 and KNO3 in one container if desired. However, mix the Plantex in a separate bottle.

NO3 7.5
N 1.694
PO4 1.3
P 0.424
K 5.264
Fe 0.5
Mg 0.107
dGH 0.025
Cu 0.007
B 0.061
Mn 0.143
Mo 0.004
Zn 0.028

(x1) KNO3 7.715 gm (approximately 1 1/2 teaspoons)
(x1) KH2PO4 1.175 gm (approximately 1/4 teaspoons)
(x1) Plantex CSM+B 4.831 gm (approximately 1 1/8 teaspoons)

The levels above are for a 10 gallon tank using a container size of 500 ml and a dose size of 30 ml.

Last edited by Darkblade48; 05-25-2014 at 11:58 PM. Reason: Back to back posts
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-25-2014, 09:53 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry, it is 90G with pressurized CO2 and high lighting using 2 BML Orignal fixtures.

I planned on dosing macros (N, P, K) 3 days per week in one 500 mL bottle.
Then dose micros (CSM+B, Fe) the other 3 days per week in a separate 500 mL bottle. I can't find anything for a liquid solution only dry. I haven't dosed in months because I can't find a good base recipe to start from. Plants have been doing doing ok without them just on CO2 and high lights but need to bring out the reds and deeper greens. I do water changes once a week at 50%.

For me using liquid solution is much easier since you just pour and go. The container has a measuring chamber you just squeeze to the amount you need, open top and pour and done. I can dose in 5 secs and be done with it. I don't have the time to mess with dry dosing.

I don't need anything complicated or trivial. Just something I can measure in grams to put in the bottle to start with. The chart on the Barr Report page is in tsp and not grams and is for dry dosing so I am not sure how to convert that to grams.

This is what I have come up with.

Macros

KNO3 - 69g
KH2PO4 - 11g
K2SO4 - 95g

Micros

Plantex CSM+B - 44g
DTPA Fe (11%) - 10g
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-25-2014, 11:04 PM
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The doses you have are correct. However, they are full EI doses for each fertilizer. The KNO3 and KH2PO4 supply sufficient potassium. If you want to make up the difference you can add K2SO4 to the bottle as well although it may not be necessary.

I like a 3:1 ratio of Plantex to DTPA Fe. So combining those and targeting an iron level of 0.5 ppm per dose will yield the results below.

Macros,
KNO3 69.438 gm (approximately 13 1/4 teaspoons)
KH2PO4 10.577 gm (approximately 2 teaspoons)
Optional... K2SO4 28.344 gm (approximately 4 1/2 teaspoons)

Micros,
Mix the Plantex and DTPA iron in the same bottle.
Plantex 29 gm (approximately 6 3/4 teaspoons)
DTPA Fe (11%) 8.775 gm (approximately 2 1/4 teaspoons(s))
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