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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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testing for K?

I got KNO3, and KH2PO4 and CSM+B for some EI dosing, but I had bad luck with it, and I started doing my own regimen where I test after a water change and dose and then in the middle of the week and dose to keep levels up. I dont have anything other than the KNO3 and KH2PO4 for K, and they dont have any K test kits here where I live. Most of the hooplah seems to be about N and P regarding macros, is the K not as important? if I'm dosing small regular doses of my KNO3 and KH2PO4 am I getting enough K?

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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 04:38 PM
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Luck has little to do with any routine.

Light and CO2 need addressed, simple things like cleaning filters, having enough water movement, water changes etc.

These, much much more than adding ferts are the reasons behind issues 95-99% of the folks have.

Adding ferts are easy.
You add them at some frequency.
Water change later=> remove any excess build up.

CO2 on the other hand makes the plants grow much faster, and it far far more difficult to measure and is far far more transient in our tanks(can change very quickly). Given that 40-45% of the plant is Carbon and mere 1 % or so is Nitrogen, and that most algae issues are very related to poor CO2 delivery and/or high light combinations, what are the odds that your suggestion will help vs figuring out what you did wrong to begin with?

EI allows you not to test N, P, K etc, but if you fail with CO2, which is extremely common for any method, you will have plenty of trouble.

So a strong focus on CO2, if you use it, (EI is not for non CO2 methods), is required. Same with moderate to lower light, using high light is asking for more work and trouble.

More light = more CO2 demand= more nutrient demand.
Less light= less CO2 demand= less nutrient demand.

If you fail to consider light and CO2, two parameters folks rarely measure well, then you really cannot say much about the nutrients.

Simply search K+ or potassium test kits using the search function, you will find a dozen or threads about the topic. If you dose KNO3, you should have 4x as much K as you need as far as plants are concerned relative to N.
If you have a low light tank and a good sized fish load, even if you reduce the KNO3 by 1/2, you still are getting plenty of K, and adding a little from KH2PO4, also means you get plenty of K.

Adding a little more via K2SO4 does no harm either.
Most GH boosters address that as well as Ca and Mg.

Spend your time and money focusing on CO2 and lighting.
That's where plant growth starts, not with P dosing.

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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Thx for the reply, I have 2.6 wpg light, and I have been maintaining CO2 between 27 and 30 ppm, I just found that with EI I had great plant growth, but my algae growth was high as well, so I cut all ferts and light and CO2, and removed as much algae as possible. I have since then brought CO2 back up and light back up, and since I have been just maintaining my nutrient levels using test kits twice a week I have no algae growth, just the stuff that was left behind staying put.

That said, I am using DIY CO2 , which is not always (never) really consistent, and I am using the KH pH method for CO2 testing, and I realize this is not very reliable using my tank water. So, like you said, CO2 is likely the culprit for my past issues, and NOT EI. I was not meaning to criticize EI, just for me with my DIY CO2 I think a custom regimen is better. My water seems to need very little nitrates, and little phosphates, so I am raising nitrates by 2 or 3 ppm once or twice a week, and phosphates by 0.25 ppm once or twice a week. I think with my light setup and CO2 I was adding FAR too much ferts, not the slight excess that EI is designed to add. Since I have switched to my own system however my tank seems to be working out better for me, great healthy growth, and no algae growth. I reiterate, I am in no position to be criticizing you or EI, I was just interested in whether I was getting enough Potassium with my additions of KNO3 and KH2PO4.

again, thanks for your help Tom

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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 05:30 PM
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I add K2SO4 as well as the other two. I just assume that I'm starting on 0 for all three and add enough to bring it up to recommended ppm's. For instance on my 32g, when I dose I add:

1/4 tsp KNO3 (this gives me 10ppm of NO3 and 6 ppm of K)
1/2 tsp K2SO4 (this adds about another 15ppm of K, providing me with a total of 21ppm for the tank)
1/16 tsp KH2PO4 (about 1ppm)
1/8 tsp Plantex (provides about 0.4ppm of iron)

I found it a bit difficult figuring out what the uptake was for my particular tank when doing ei, with diy co2, a fluctuating fish load, and low lighting. What I did to sort of determine whether I was way overdosing or not, was tested nitrate (the only kit I have, which I also calibrated with a reference solution to be sure it was somewhat accurate) and if it was testing around 10 - 30ppm I figured everything was fine. If it dropped to below 5ppm I would dose all ferts again in the ratios listed above. The way I figured, if nitrate was gone, the other stuff was probably gone too. Right now, I dose about once or twice a week and this keeps my nitrates on the plus side. Plants are doing great, the tank is nearly algae free. I also only do a 30% water change every week or second week, the 50% water changes required by EI was too difficult because my water is extremely soft so I had to reconstitute it every time and the parameters were fluctuating a lot. Since I've changed to doing it this way, both fish and plants are doing better than ever and it's less work for me.
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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carissa View Post
I add K2SO4 as well as the other two. I just assume that I'm starting on 0 for all three and add enough to bring it up to recommended ppm's. For instance on my 32g, when I dose I add:
Yeah, I actually find that even after my 50% water changes I still have 4 ppm Nitrates, and around 0.25-0.5 ppm phosphates; and this is after 3 days of plants consuming the nutrients. Either my fish load (pretty high) and my tap water are not letting me "reset" my concentrations after water changes, or my plants just don't consume very much nutrients. These issues plus my CO2 and medium light levels are why I think my custom routine works best for me.

I have been monitoring my dosing, and if I keep my plants the sizes they are, and my fish load the same, I think I can figure out a regular routine similar to yours that will let me dose and not have to test all the time, maybe just one test a month to see if things are still cool.

It's comforting knowing that there are others out there who need their own custom regimen! For a while I was kinda worried that I was just messing something up.

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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 10:50 PM
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A 50% water change is also inconvenient for me as well. Plus I'm running a high light tank.I'm a believer now that CO2 is the key-I've got it cranked way more than I ever did in the past. I also now shut it off at night but use a controller during the day. I just watch everything much closer now ie:the plants themselves. I'm having much more success now than I ever did by basically cranking up CO2 and using dry ferts on a daily basis.Oh, and also save your money on the test kits-just watch the plants, they'll let you know if something is out of whack.


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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 03:33 AM Thread Starter
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yeah, the test kits are not cheap, but I do like having them. How can you tell whats out of whack by the plants? I realize that brown or yellow leaves are a sign that something is off, but how can you tell what is off by the plants?

BTW, not to hijack my own thread, but how much does a reasonable quality pressurized CO2 system cost? I am eventually going to quit DIY as I get bigger tanks, my 29 is pushing it I think, and I want to know what to look forward to.

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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9am53 View Post
I have been maintaining CO2 between 27 and 30 ppm,
So you are sure that the CO2 is within this 3 ppm range all the time during the time you have kept this tank using this fert routine?

Uh huh........

and you have DIY CO2, well, if I had a nickel for everytime I found the root issue was DIY CO2 with folks that made claims about nutrients........I'd be very rich.

Do you think CO2 production is slower or faster at cool or warmer temps?
What happens at night and during the day?

Do you think CO2 production and rates are stable over the times you change the brew?

I'm not saying DIY cannot be done without getting algae, I am saying the errors made and folks believing they can measure CO2 accurate are far more than mere suspect.

Let me put it another way:
How come I can set up and do a new tank, and maintain such tanks for years without having any algae issues? I use EI.

If EI was the cause, I would have to see algae.

Do you agree?

It's simple logic.

However, if you do not know and have not controlled for most things, many new folks do not, then you might be led to make poor assumptions.

You might assumer that it's low K, or high PO4.
Many do and have made such errors in their logic.

But clearly I'm not lying to you nor will others, so if you accept that EI or some excess ferts causes algae, then where are the algae ridden tanks?

Here's a tank that's been running for the last 3 years using full EI:



and another:





Where is the algae?

It cannot possibly be the nutrients.

What is different about your tank vs these tanks?
It's not the nutrients.

CO2?

I can be sure/certain about the nutrients, CO2?
Even with high grade CO2 equipment and 2000$ meter, I only have accuracies to about 1-2ppm of CO2.

I'd figure at best, most have 5-10ppm accuracy, and some are simply wayyyy off. The other issue with CO2, how the ppms change throughout a day cycle.

These can vary widely.
CO2 is not static, one measurement at one time of day often does not tell you much, except at that moment.

But plants grow all day long.

Quote:
That said, I am using DIY CO2 , which is not always (never) really consistent, and I am using the KH pH method for CO2 testing, and I realize this is not very reliable using my tank water.
And there's the smoking gun.

Quote:
So, like you said, CO2 is likely the culprit for my past issues, and NOT EI. I was not meaning to criticize EI, just for me with my DIY CO2 I think a custom regimen is better.
Let me ask you something, do you think that the algae are limited with your dosing routine and testing?

Do you really think that say 2ppm of NO3 will limit any species of algae vs say 20ppm?

Now what about a much larger plant?

Why might this routine work whereas you failed with EI?

EI ruled out any nutrient limitation, except for CO2.
And CO2 is your Achilles Heel.

Using another limitation, say NO3, will slow down CO2 demand.
Then you think it's testing and custom routines and lean ferts that resolve algae, not CO2 issues.

But you'd be wrong.

You never resolved the root issue nor learned why you had an issue in the first place. If you want to reduce CO2 demand and growth, reduce the light, that's the most sensible method.

Many folks do this and make this mistake.

But if you want to understand and learn how to grow plants well, then looking at CO2 and light critically will help far more than limiting this nutrient or another.

Quote:
My water seems to need very little nitrates, and little phosphates, so I am raising nitrates by 2 or 3 ppm once or twice a week, and phosphates by 0.25 ppm once or twice a week. I think with my light setup and CO2 I was adding FAR too much ferts, not the slight excess that EI is designed to add.
And you believe that caused algae?
I should be able to induce algae based on that hypothesis using excess ferts.
But clearly I have been unable too.
Even with 3x more light all the way down to 1/2 the light you have.
But....my CO2 is stable and in a good range the entire light cycle.

I can also take a basically well run tank and louse it good and induce about 4-7 species of algae by messing with the CO2. In some tanks, it takes 3-4 weeks, others, a few days.

So what might that suggest?

Quote:
Since I have switched to my own system however my tank seems to be working out better for me, great healthy growth, and no algae growth. I reiterate, I am in no position to be criticizing you or EI, I was just interested in whether I was getting enough Potassium with my additions of KNO3 and KH2PO4.

again, thanks for your help Tom
It's not about ego or criticizing EI, PO4, NO3 etc for me, never has been.
It's much more about getting to the root of the issues for folks, having them ask the questions themselves, so they have a better understanding.
Then they can help others much more effectively.
Knowing how all the parts work together is much better.

I already know.
I do not need to prove it to myself because I've already done that years ago.
I thought many of the same things folks do prior as well.
But I also know how to set up test to see and question questions.
Calibrating test kits is part of this and using methods that are really accurate when possible.

What is important is that you see how the logic is applied and where your own assumptions might have led you to think something was correct, when in fact, it was something you did not consider and led you to an incorrect conclusion.

I would highly suggest using Gas tanks for CO2.
This will help you far more than most any other thing.

I think many aquarist are scared of messing with anything once they happen by chance on something that is working for them. Not me.
I want to know why something gets algae and why not.

This helps me virtually never get algae in the future and I can really focus on plant health.

That's a lot better than luck.

You also are likely taking better care, dosing more, amd maintaining the CO2 a lot more now than you where then. you have more experience today than you did then also.

These are human factors, and have nothing to do with the methods you seem to imply are better/worse for you.

Many folks try one method, fail, then happen on another, do well at it, and then forever think that other method was bad, when it was just them making newbie mistakes and not taking good care of their tank like they do today.

If I fail at a method I know that works, I go back and try and figure it out.
I know in doing so, I can help my tank be even more stable and have better resiliency against algae and have better plant growth. This way I know I needed to add more CO2 than folks where telling me, or more Traces, or more K+, or less light etc.

We all go through this at some point if you stay in the hobby long enough.
This just helps you to think and learn without as much frustration/mistakes and more insight.

Basically there's still room for improvement in the tank.
Might not be worth it you though.
Many think about it like that, the trade offs.

Get a gas tank, that I know will help no matter what.

Regards,
Tom Barr




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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9am53 View Post
Y Either my fish load (pretty high) and my tap water are not letting me "reset" my concentrations after water changes, or my plants just don't consume very much nutrients.

It's comforting knowing that there are others out there who need their own custom regimen! For a while I was kinda worried that I was just messing something up.
Fish load is helping, and tap might have some nutrients as well.
Plants do not consume much nutrients when they are limited.

If they have plenty of CO2, then they grow well and then go after nutrients at a much higher rate than the amounts listed.

Test kits, especially in the lower ranges get poorer accuracy and the fraction of nutrients become less bioavailable, generally due to the test kits measuring total NO3 or total PO4, not organic vs inorganic(the bioavailable types).

So the tank might be a lot more limited than what you think.
This is very true for PO4. Knowing the tap is also pretty important also.

Any tank can be considered "custom".
You should tweak the dosing and CO2 for optimal growth.

But a standard routine of dosing should also not cause any issues either as far as algae, that says poor CO2 and consistency. Once you see that, then you are far more able to resolve any future issues.

Some folks use the test kits to check to see if they need a WC, that's a trade off. I can and have automated and made water changes easy for myself.

I cannot automate a NO3 test.
If I do a WC, I know I will clean and prune the tank, get the dirt out, remove the organic fractions.

As far as super soft water, my tap is very soft these days, but I do 80% WC's without any issues, I have wild fish, some supposedly sensitive etc, never any issues here.

I only add things for GH for soft water, not KH, I really do not think that Kh matters much except for folks that use the pH/KH table to measure CO2.
You can bypass that entirely if you use a ref Drop checker, but that's not that accurate and bit slow for response, but still better than tank water for KH.

So just add some Gh booster and that's the end of that issue.
If you have hard water and use RO, then you simple blend to reduce the KH to where you like and then add GH if needed.

A simple little giant sump pump can drain a 90 Gallon tank 1/2 and refill inside 15 minutes anywhere in the home with tank warm tap water with so much as a drop on the floor.

While the tank is draining and refilling, I've cleaned the filter and pruned a little.

You can also do both testing and water changes as well.
That was the old advice going way back.
I suggested this myself.

This dates me somewhat as it was from 1997:
http://sfbaaps.org/articles/barr_02.html

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Tom Barr




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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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wow, ok, what to say.

I admitted that CO2 was likely the reason for my algae problems, and not EI. I also admitted that my testing method for CO2 ppm was also suspect, 27-30ppm was what I was getting using the pH and KH tests like I said. I test throughout the day, because I am obsessed, I test at night as well, I have an airstone running to keep the fish breathing and let O2 to the plants, but I leave the CO2 on. During mash changes I plug the hose leading from the bottle IM changing so only the more recent bottle is running, and I maintain flow to the reactor (I have 2 bottles). The temperature in my apartment is relatively stable, and my tank temp as well, so temp has little to do with affecting CO2 production or dissolution, I am maintaining a pH of 6.6 - 6.8 whereas my pH before CO2 is 7.5or7.6, my KH is 80 ppm. According to these numbers I have good CO2, but like I said I realize the tests are not perfect, and that IM testing my tank water, and that there is more i this water than baking soda and CO2. This was not meant to be a major thread, I thought it would be a one line answer.

There is no need to convince me that EI works, like I said I am obsessed with my tank, and I peruse this forum quite regularly, and the success stories speak for themselves. I am a student, just finishing up my thesis project (I'm a scientist too) and I live in a tiny one bedroom apt with 2 cats a lizard, and 2 tanks, not to mention my girlfriend. There is little room. I'd love a pressurized CO2 system, and I know that this is the root of the problem as you said, there is no need to convince me of this, but I cant afford or fit one right now. I work just enough to pay my bills until exams are over, so 1.89 for a kilo of sugar and 5 bucks for yeast is about all I can afford.

Telling me that I should get a pressurized tank and fix all my problems is like saying that I should buy a new car and leave the problems of my 87 pickup behind.

All this thread was about was working with what I have. With my presumably low and unstable CO2 and medium light I found something that works FOR ME. EI like you said needs high and stable CO2, which I dont have...I stopped trying to fit my tank and my budget into a cookie cutter formula that I couldn't fit into, and started doing things that work for me. I am happy with my tank, I am not complaining about anything now, I just wanted to know if I was getting enough potassium.

I realize you know what you're talking about, and your advice is worth reading, but I'm not an idiot either, and I realize my shortcomings in this hobby (I've only been at it since november). I don't like feeling like I have to defend myself or apologize for asking a question either though.

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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 9am53 View Post

Telling me that I should get a pressurized tank and fix all my problems is like saying that I should buy a new car and leave the problems of my 87 pickup behind.
I suppose, but I was no different than you where a few years ago.
I was a poor student, and the gas CO2 was a thing I did not see the value of.
Looking back, that was a HUGE difference.
Made life and stability immeasurably better.

Look, you are suggesting testing right?
You want to know more about N, P, and now K+?

But missing the largest influencing factor, CO2(I'll leave light alone here, but that's another), and assuming the pH/KH test is correct has led to many issues and you can ask around about this one.
And that's the point I'm trying to help folks/you to understand.

You want to do a more controlled set up that works for you.
Why worry about something that has much less influence vs something that's the Lion's share?

Obsession is great, as long as it's directed in answering the questions that you really want to know that achieve your goal/s.

Quote:
EI like you said needs high and stable CO2,
No no, it's light dependent, with less light, you have less CO2 demand, therefore you do not need as much for non limiting levels. I only need perhaps 15 ppm at 1.5 w/gal of T5 lights, whereas at 6 watt, I better have 30-35ppm.
But even if I added full EI to both tanks, they should be fine either way, but I do not need to add full EI to the lower light tank.

Light, not CO2 or nutrients is the limiting factor in both cases.
Obviously as you scale up the light, the CO2 and nutrients need to be matched as well, but having higher CO2 or higher nutrients with low light should never induce algae either.

Quote:
which I dont have...I stopped trying to fit my tank and my budget into a cookie cutter formula that I couldn't fit into, and started doing things that work for me. I am happy with my tank, I am not complaining about anything now, I just wanted to know if I was getting enough potassium.

I realize you know what you're talking about, and your advice is worth reading, but I'm not an idiot either, and I realize my shortcomings in this hobby (I've only been at it since november). I don't like feeling like I have to defend myself or apologize for asking a question either though.
You are taking this the wrong way.
I'm not asking for you to apologize nor defend.
Just think about it and see what is really helping, and causing the problems you have/have had in the past.
Look, please do not assume this is personal... you are making a bad assumption about me and one that's very wrong.

It can take many years to see such relationships, but if you start off understanding them, then you have much less grief and much more success.

Why bother going to school and learning from the past work of others when you learn your own custom way?

Same thing here.

You have been at it for a few months, that's not long and the info can overwhelm. Folks often try a number of things to get a handle on it.

James took my advice and he's far from typical, but he did plain old EI dosing and 8 months into this hobby did this tank:

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.or...=0&vol=2&id=71

Nice scape too, but a scape does not define a method either.
Looks better than many that have been in for years.
I used DIY CO2 for 10 years.
I know the pain there
Keep doing what you are, you'll figure it out later if you stick with it
Make sure to question and or/calibrate each test kit reading.
Learn how to make stock reference solutions to ensure the test kit readings are accurate.

BTW Hanna makes a decent little K+ test kit, runs about 180$ though. Fairly accurate vs the spect I have. But that's likely out of the price range(but try to see if folks at school have equipment you can use, you can freeze the tank water samples, then thaw and test a bunch all at once and get a nice time series). The other thing is to see if you can borrow one.
I have one sitting here and could loan it to you.


Regards,
Tom Barr




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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Tom, that tank is stunning, looks like the first tank that appears in YOUR TANKS that I always stare at lol. I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate the help with the K, I also appreciate that you know where I'm coming from. Light wise I have a AH supply 55 watt with the good reflector, and a 20 watt T8 I put a homemade reflector (not too good) on. This gives me 75 watts, over a 29 gallon, so medium light. I am learning from the lessons of the past, thats why Im on this forum, to ask and learn, and i have learned a lot since I started compared to where I'd be if I wasn't on here. I also appreciate a bit of scientific method, which IM sure you can appreciate as well. I started dosing Ei at the 20-40 gallon measurements range, as I thought I fit in that range. I slowly realized that I am running lower light levels that I thought I was compared to others, and I pared back my EI to the 10-20 gallon tank range....before I started [email protected] and dosing, I had no algae, once I started, algae popped up, in a BAD way, so since I was not going to be able to get a CO2 tank, I made the yeast system as efficient as I could, and changed the other "variable", which was my fertilizers. This is why I said that I had bad luck with EI, and why I am doing what I am doing.

As surely as I graduated from a bare tank with a bunch of barbs and fake plants to real plants and a few fish, I will surely also graduate to pressurized CO2, in which case I will surely also give EI another go, because EI is logical and simple as can be, which is always what we scientists look for, and elegant solution.

I think Ill start taking water samples to my lab at school and see how my test kits are really doing, and for now keep doing what Im doing dosing wise. This summer (once I get a real job) I plan on getting a bigger place, another aquarium, more lights, and big CO2 tank to run all 3 of my aquariums. At this time, I will try EI again, and hopefully look as good as James' tank!

I'm sorry this thread turned into what it did, I just felt like I was being told that I should stop wasting my time and get a CO2 tank...which is not feasible, and from being around a bunch of University Brats all the time I hear the "Get a new car, dump the old rust bucket" all the time, and Im kind of defensive about it I suppose. So no hard feelings here. And soon enough you'll see my green thumb making some nice scapes too!

Thanks for the help, and patience!

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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 09:37 PM
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I don't have much of a problem keeping diy co2 fairly stable in my 32g. It's not as good as pressurized, no doubt but it does work better than nothing. I use 2 - 2L bottles, 1/2 tsp yeast and 2 cups sugar each time, adding an additional 1/2 tsp of yeast per week and changing each bottle out every two weeks minimum, and keeping a very close eye on my drop checker in between and taking immediate action if it starts to go towards blue. I also have a desk lamp that I keep on the bottles 24/7 after the initial few days of high production after a bottle change, this keeps the temps high enough that the production stays up. My tank is nearly algae free. However I only have 60 watts of light so that helps too. The reason I stopped doing "full" ei was because I was having mysterious fish deaths that always seemed to happen within two days after a water change. I chalked it up to fluctuating GH and KH since my water has 0 on both parameters, and obviously I have to add Mg and Ca to each water change (and I wasn't always perfectly accurate in what I would add), and my sand leaches KH, so every time I would do a water change both of those values would fluctuate quite a bit. Since I reduced to 25 - 30% changes and cut back dosing to 1 - 2x/week I haven't lost any more fish and the plants are doing just fine (as long as I stay on top of the co2). With higher light the co2 demand will obviously be greater, plus if and when it does drop algae sets in a whole lot faster than in a lower light tank like mine so you would probably have to be EXTRA diligent in keeping co2 stable for it to work well.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 10:27 PM Thread Starter
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thx, I just read over a thread from a little while ago talking about adding protein shake and some molasses to the bottle as well, to help the yeast grow...seems interesting, I have had a good CO2 mix in the bottles, but I may switch it up for a bit and see what happens...

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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 11:43 PM
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I tried a lot of experiments when I started doing diy co2, and the best thing that I found was to simply add more (bloomed) yeast after a week. This doesn't just add yeast, but more importantly adds nutrients too which it seems that the yeast starts starving for after the first week. Nothing else I added (molasses, baking soda, gelatin, etc.) seemed to really have much of an effect. Also the type of yeast had a big effect on it. I tried the Fleichman's stuff in jars and packets and it was really inconsistent even with brand new stuff, I went through so many headaches trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. But when I finally switched to the Fleichmanns 1kg giant industrial size can, it started working for me, every single time. The addition of the lamp for heat is what finally made the real difference, my living room drops down to about 15C at night and that was just killing the production. Now with the lamp, I have no problem going two weeks with great production.
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