Do not dose K2HPO4 and Plantex together? More info please... - The Planted Tank Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-15-2008, 11:13 PM Thread Starter
Grow little guys... grow.
 
i4x4nMore's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 191
Do not dose K2HPO4 and Plantex together? More info please...

I've read the following regarding dosing: Do not dose K2HPO4 together with Plantex because it will form iron phosphate that is nearly impossible to dissolve in water. Can someone please elaborate and/or clarify...

I'm using separate diluted solutions of each substance:
  • Does this mean: Do not dose at the exact same time?
  • Does this mean: Do not even dose an hour apart from one another?
  • Does this mean: Do not even dose on the same day?
  • What does this MEAN?
I have been dosing the two separately on the same day separated by 20 minutes. If iron phosphate did form, would it precipitate into something I could "see" in my clear water prep tank? I have a feeling this is unlikely because the iron concentration is so small to begin with. But, just asking.


Second Thought:

If I was, in fact, forming perfect iron phosphate every time I dosed <sigh>, would it eventually be freed by any biological activity within the loam soil substrate I have in my tanks? Where is Walstad when you need her?

Cheers!

Jeremy Squires, Toronto, ON
One should never have to decide between chocolate, cake, or cookies.
i4x4nMore is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 12:17 AM
Fresh Fish Freak
 
lauraleellbp's Avatar
 
PTrader: (70/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 24,403
Just from research, not personal experience:

Don't mix them together prior to dosing or mix them in the water column at the same time. I've heard some ppl dose them on the same day but at different times of the day, and some dose at the same time but on opposite sides of a long tank. Some just alternate days.

I'm pretty sure I read through a thread where Tom Barr chimed in on this issue but my brain cells are not recalling what he said ATM... I'm thinking that iron phosphate will NOT revert back to a form useful to the plants, however??

Did you run a search on the forum for "iron phosphate"?

Here's a somewhat recent discussion on the subject- there's probably many more if you go back further: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/wa...os-micros.html





To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Next meeting Monday, Oct 13, 2014 @ 7:15pm- See ya there!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
lauraleellbp is offline  
post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 05:03 AM Thread Starter
Grow little guys... grow.
 
i4x4nMore's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 191
Thanks for the info! And the link. Perfect. Here's a response by imeridian that I think is very logical:

Quote:
PO4 and Fe will react if stored together, it is not a problem if dosed on the same day. The volume of the aquarium is so much greater and the dose is so much smaller. If small quantities in the aquarium were such a problem, then we'd not be able to dose them at all. It isn't as though your PO4 is zero on the days you dose micros... nor is your Fe level likely to be absolutely zero on days you dose macros. It isn't an instantaneous reaction anyway. PPS and EI 'liquid' both put Micros & Macros in the aquarium on the same day, there really is no problem with doing it that way.

[Here's what I wrote before checking the link you sent...]

Based on the variety of dosing methods that people employ, it seems like this is a foggy issue overall. But they all sound like methods to simply avoid the iron phosphate from having an easy chance to form. Fair enough.

I was doing some additional thinking and came up with the idea that my soil probably could capture the iron through natural bacterial processes (as Walstad explains), BUT it would have to get there in the first place. I can't think how the iron phosphate would penetrate the bio-layer on the surface of the substrate... and then, further more, penetrate an inch of fine gravel before reaching the soil.

I've only been dosing for three weeks and I haven't noticed anything that looks like an iron deficiency. But then again, my soil could have plenty of plant available iron by itself. Before my switch to dosing, it's very possible that my macro nutrient deficiencies outweighed any other problems. After three weeks of consistent and precise dosing, the tanks are superbly green, bubbling, and vibrant, and algae is receding.

But, still, I don't want to defeat the purpose of adding phosphate and iron only to create a substance that can't be used! I really want to know the particulars. It's difficult for me to dose every day, i.e. macros one day and then micros the next. So I prefer dosing every other day... Which means that phosphate and iron have to get added nearly at the same time. I want to know if it's possible at all.

Cheers!

Jeremy Squires, Toronto, ON
One should never have to decide between chocolate, cake, or cookies.

Last edited by i4x4nMore; 04-16-2008 at 05:10 AM. Reason: found more info through provided link
i4x4nMore is offline  
 
post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 05:15 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
imeridian's Avatar
 
PTrader: (47/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hagerstown, MD
Posts: 2,847
Send a message via AIM to imeridian
You're worrying far too much about this FePO4 issue.

Don't mix your solutions together, apart from that it really doesn't matter what you do in regards to actually dosing them. The reaction isn't instant, it takes time, thus if they intermingle in the same container you'll have formed a sludge over time. I've done this inadvertently within my autodosing tubing; the water flush that was meant to keep the two solutions from intermingling at full strength within the tubing failed to operate.

Oh, I see where you found me discussing the issue, lol...

75 Gallon Planted Tank
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

imeridian is offline  
post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 05:20 AM
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto/Singapore
Posts: 11,476
I normally just dose both the trace elements with the macros at the same time. It is advised you don't mix them together in solution because they will precipitate and form iron phosphate (true), but this will occur at high concentrations only (i.e. concentrations that can be found in our stock solutions).

Once you dose your fertilizer into your aquarium, the amount of water there is much greater, and the concentration of fertilizer becomes much lower. Subsequently, the chance of precipitation is nil.

Anthony


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is offline  
post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 05:36 AM Thread Starter
Grow little guys... grow.
 
i4x4nMore's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 191
re: everyone's comments

Thanks everyone. I can sleep far better tonight. <whew!>

Yes, this idea of Parts Per Million and relative volumes is starting to sink into my brain. If you only have 0.1 parts per million, the chances of that interacting with another substance that is only 1 part in one million is very small! It's really like the odds of finding your perfect soulmate.... I am definitely 0.00001 parts per million. And I really wanna collide and precipitate with someone!

But, really, I think we can put this iron phosphate question to rest.

Cheers!

Jeremy Squires, Toronto, ON
One should never have to decide between chocolate, cake, or cookies.
i4x4nMore is offline  
post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 05:45 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
imeridian's Avatar
 
PTrader: (47/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hagerstown, MD
Posts: 2,847
Send a message via AIM to imeridian
Quote:
Originally Posted by i4x4nMore View Post
I am definitely 0.00001 parts per million. And I really wanna collide and precipitate with someone!
*rolls on the floor laughing*

I like that, "I'm just some PO4 looking for some Fe, please precipitate with me."

I think you would find that in cases where clouding was reported that the chelating agent for the Iron is actually at fault, not the FePO4 reaction itself.

75 Gallon Planted Tank
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

imeridian is offline  
post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 06:21 AM Thread Starter
Grow little guys... grow.
 
i4x4nMore's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 191
re: my little joke

Haha, glad I could make someone laugh.... but it's so true. <...find me, please.>

P.S. I'm going to have to remember you when I eventually gravitate to autodosing. You seem like a brain with legs. Or a brain with an internet connection... whatever.

Cheers!

Jeremy Squires, Toronto, ON
One should never have to decide between chocolate, cake, or cookies.
i4x4nMore is offline  
post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 07:48 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
ikuzo's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 2,146
Send a message via Yahoo to ikuzo
hey i find this discussion useful! i had the same worries too.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ikuzo is offline  
post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-19-2008, 07:02 AM
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto/Singapore
Posts: 11,476
Quote:
Originally Posted by i4x4nMore View Post
And I really wanna collide and precipitate with someone!
Groan! What a terrible chemistry joke

Anthony


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is offline  
post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-21-2008, 03:08 PM
Algae Grower
 
calihawker's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cool, California
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikuzo View Post
hey i find this discussion useful! i had the same worries too.

Ditto.

"Man has emerged from the depths of antiquity with a peregrine on his wrist."
calihawker is offline  
post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-21-2008, 09:41 PM
Banned
 
Left C's Avatar
 
PTrader: (19/100%)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, NC
Posts: 5,009
I just looked up iron phosphate at Wikipedia. It’s used as a molluscicide in organic farming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_phosphate


Iron phosphate is approved as an organic snail and slug bait.
http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/biopesti...ces_034903.htm


From: http://www.pesticide.org/slugs.html
"An Alternative Slug Bait

NCAP does not recommend the use of pesticides. However, we recognize that you may have slug problems for which you believe pesticides are necessary. If so, you might want to consider iron phosphate. Slug baits containing iron phosphate, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), have “no unreasonable adverse effects to human health,” and show a “lack of toxicity” to “birds, fish and non-target insects.” Iron phosphate is used as a nutritional supplement and is an abundant mineral."

EHEIM PIMP #164
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Classic 2011, Classic 2213, Classic 2217, ECCO 2236, Pro II 2028, Liberty 2040, Liberty 2042

VICTOR PIMP #1
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
VTS253A-1993, VTS250B-580, VTS253D-320, HPT500-40-350-4M, SGT500-40-4F-DK
Left C is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome