EI dosing schedule, is this ok? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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EI dosing schedule, is this ok?

Using calc.petaphile.com I came up with the below schedule, does this seem good? First time I'm mixing my own as I previously used pre-mixed from nilocg. I've noticed my hygro dropped a ton of old leaves and some new leaves are kinda twisted. I've had some ludwigia red drop old leaves too and rotala green break on old growth. I figured the pre-mixed ferts weren't the right levels for my tank so I bought the EI pack from GLA.

Mixing in 500mL bottles with a 30mL dose every other day for Micro/Macro. I am also using a gH booster on water change day on Sundays. My tank is a 46g bow front.

To reach your target of 7.5 ppm NO3 you will need to add 35.49 g KNO3 to your 500.0 mL dosing container. Add 30.0 mL of that mix to your 46.0 US gal aquarium to yield

To reach your target of 7.5 ppm K you will need to add 48.505 g K2SO4 to your 500.0 mL dosing container. Add 30.0 mL of that mix to your 46.0 US gal aquarium to yield

To reach your target of 1.3 ppm PO4 you will need to add 5.406 g KH2PO4 to your 500.0 mL dosing container. Add 30.0 mL of that mix to your 46.0 US gal aquarium to yield

To reach your target of 0.5 ppm Fe you will need to add 22.222 g Plantex CSM+B to your 500.0 mL dosing container. Add 30.0 mL of that mix to your 46.0 US gal aquarium to yield
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 03:08 PM
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Don't put that in your tank or even mix it without asking someone who knows how to use that calculator first. You may be putting up to double what you need in there.
A person familiar/w it can also explain it better than I but since I use the section which gives the measurements in teaspoons(or parts thereof) I will try to explain it as best I can. But check/w others to get a better explanation.
The list on the right(of the calculator) has "the results" for individual nutrients.
You have a "target PPM". But you need to add the results for ALL of the nutrients
to see what the total is and compare that to your target figure.
I'll give you an example, but using the teaspoons, which the section from "and you are dosing for"...on this section, the choice that is "Low light EI/Weekly" gives me
1/4 teaspoon of KNO3...but I also dose K2SO4...so I need to cut my doses of the KNO3
and cut the doses of K2SO4 to half each to get the total of 1/4 tsp. So I use 1/8 tsp
of each. That gives me a 1/4 tsp dose of the K.
I know this may not yet be clear, but I suggest you just wait till others answer you.

The shortest distance between any two points is a straight line...in the opposite direction...
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 03:17 PM Thread Starter
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Hah yeah, that just confused me more. I thought that by using the calculator I can use the doses recommended there and then just mix the macros into my solution and dose 30mL every other day. Same with micro. I do understand that since I dose KNO3 and K2SO4 that I may need to cut some of my KNO3, which is why I was asking here.

I prefer doing the premixed solution as it's just easier each day. Hopefully as you said someone else who mixes solutions can chime in.

My measurements came from selecting 'The Estimated Index' rather than 'EI Daily'. I assume that's right since I do 3 times a week every other day macro/micro?

Did some more searching and came across this, using the EI dosing from the sticky. This person said that they were dosing for 45 gallons, so my 46 should work for this. Plus these numbers come from the 40-60 size tank scale which should easily fit my needs. So if I mix the measurements shown below in each bottle filled with 500mL I should be perfect I believe.

Bottle 1
500mL water + 5.5 Tbsp KNO3 = 33 doses at 15mL per dose (3 doses per week = 11 weeks of dosing)
500mL water + 2 Tsp KH2PO4 = 33 doses at 15mL per dose (3 doses per week = 11 weeks of dosing)
500mL water + 4 Tsp K2SO4 = 33 doses at 15mL per dose (3 doses per week = 11 weeks of dosing)

Bottle 2
500mL Water + 2 Tbsp CSM+B = 50 doses at 10mL per dose (3 doses per week = ~17 weeks of dosing)

Last edited by bsantucci; 03-24-2014 at 04:57 PM. Reason: which am I calculating for?
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 05:43 PM
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The numbers in your first post look good with the exception of K2SO4. That dose exceeds the solubility of K2SO4. That said you don't need to dose a full 7.5 ppm of K through K2SO4. The KNO3 and KH2PO4 both have K in them. This is usually enough without dosing extra potassium although it won't hurt anything if you want to add a little more.

Below are the EI doses for a 500ml solution and 30ml doses. If you want to add the K2SO4 then adding 2 tsp. will account for what's not in the others.

KNO3 7 tsp. (7.69 NO3 and 4.85 K)
KH2PO4 1 tsp. (1.35 PO4 and 0.55 K)
Plantex 5 tsp. (0.48 Fe)

K2SO4 2 tsp. (1.98 K)
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
The numbers in your first post look good with the exception of K2SO4. That dose exceeds the solubility of K2SO4. That said you don't need to dose a full 7.5 ppm of K through K2SO4. The KNO3 and KH2PO4 both have K in them. This is usually enough without dosing extra potassium although it won't hurt anything if you want to add a little more.

Below are the EI doses for a 500ml solution and 30ml doses. If you want to add the K2SO4 then adding 2 tsp. will account for what's not in the others.

KNO3 7 tsp. (7.69 NO3 and 4.85 K)
KH2PO4 1 tsp. (1.35 PO4 and 0.55 K)
Plantex 5 tsp. (0.48 Fe)

K2SO4 2 tsp. (1.98 K)
Awesome, I appreciate the assistance here. I have read that I could reduce K2SO4 due to the use of the others, but wasn't sure how best to do that.

So I can actually learn rather than being spoon fed, can you tell me how you came to these numbers? Did you use the calculator I referenced above?

Also, for argument sake, say I wanted to keep using 30mL doses and wanted full dose of K2SO4. You say the number the calc provided isn't soluble in the 500mL. How do you do a concentrated dose then to dose low amounts of solution? Just curious, I will definitely go by your numbers, but again, I like to learn actually so I don't have to lean on others in the future.

Also, based on the doses I found in the other post which I have below here again, is that why this user doses 5.5 Tbsp of KNO3 to only 4 Tsp of K2SO4? He is making up the K lost in lowering the dose of K2SO4 to make it soluble in 500mL?

500mL water + 5.5 Tbsp KNO3 = 33 doses at 15mL per dose (3 doses per week = 11 weeks of dosing)
500mL water + 2 Tsp KH2PO4 = 33 doses at 15mL per dose (3 doses per week = 11 weeks of dosing)
500mL water + 4 Tsp K2SO4 = 33 doses at 15mL per dose (3 doses per week = 11 weeks of dosing)

Last edited by bsantucci; 03-24-2014 at 07:01 PM. Reason: understanding
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 10:18 PM
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The solutions you listed from him/her are good as well. The difference being the dose, his is 15ml and mine are 30ml. It appears the user you are referencing is accounting for the potassium difference as well. 4 tsp. in 500ml using a 15ml dose provides roughly 2ppm of K. So essentially you can use either one you listed, they are both the same except for the dosing size.

If you want to convert a dose to teaspoon select the result of my dose in the section labeled "I am calculating for". Then you can enter teaspoon measure until you arrive at the dose you want. Just get close this isn't an exact science.

If you don't know what ppm a dose should be select "the Estimative index". The target nutrient will be listed in the result i.e. "To reach your target of 7.5 ppm NO3 you will need to add 70.98 g KNO3 to your 500.0 mL dosing container."

Basically the targets are
7.5ppm for NO3
1.3ppm for PO4
0.5ppm for iron
7.5ppm for K

That 7.5ppm for K is mostly provided in the KNO3. I don't think you would see a difference if you left out the additional K but as I said it won't hurt to add it just in case. The amount of K provided by KNO3 and KH2PO4 will also be listed in the results. So that covers the macros, NPK, and the rest. The rest coming from Plantex and targeting iron for a dosage. The only two left is magnesium and calcium which are your GH. So if you have a GH over say 6 dGH you don't need to worry about these. If you have less adding GH booster will account for them, including potassium if using Seachem's. If you have low GH add enough GH booster to raise GH 1-2 degrees at water change. Make sense?
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 10:33 PM Thread Starter
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Makes perfect sense. I really appreciate it. I've been asking a ton of questions lately to get a grasp on doing things myself and you've answered in every thread so I can't thank you enough. I was doing all cookie cutter type things originally but want to actually understand everything now. I think I have a grasp on everything now. My gh is around 5ish so I'm using just a bit of booster. I'll run with these measurements for a few weeks and see how the plants respond and adjust accordingly.

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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 10:57 PM
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I was always a bit leary of .5ppm of iron every other day (3x a week). That's 1.5 ppm a week. I've noticed problems with higher iron concentrations. I know some people like Mr. Barr will tout the benign nature of almost any macro or micro nutrient in typical EI dosing regimen, but the fact remains that EI dosing does NOT reflect typical (or even close to) concentrations in nature.

Iron problems have been shown in plants at 1mg/L :

Duckweed is a suitable plant model because of its small
size, rapid growth, and ease of culture [46, 57, 58]. Lemna
minor L., Lemna paucicostata Hegelm., Lemna gibba L.
and Spirodela polyrrhiza (L.) Schleid are all widespreadly
used in toxicity evaluation experiments. In our previous
study, S. polyrrhiza was used to evaluate its physiological
responses to excess iron (1, 10, and 100 mg L-1 Fe3+, added
in the form of FeCl36H2O) [46]. After a 24-h short-term
exposure, 10 and 100 mg L-1 Fe3+ caused plants necrosis or
death and colonies disintegration as well as roots abscission.
Moreover, significant differences in chlorophyll fluorescence
(Fv/Fm) were observed at 1-100 mg L-1 iron. Furthermore,
the synthesis of chlorophyll and protein as well
as carbohydrate, and the uptake of phosphate and nitrogen,
were inhibited seriously by excess iron. In addition, with
the increase of iron concentration, malondialdehyde (MDA)
content increased, but proline content decreased.

Though submerged macrophytes and emergent plants
are extensively studied, effects of iron on physiology of
them are relatively rare. At higher iron solution concentrations,
plants exhibit visual symptoms of possible iron
toxicity, including root flaccidity, reduced root branching,
increased shoot die-back and mottling of leaves [44, 59,
60]. Moreover, Basiouny et al. [43] pointed out that contents
of iron and chlorophyll in Hydrilla verticillata (L.f.)
Royle increased with the increase of iron concentration
(0-8.0 ppm). Batty and Younger [44] found a threshold of
iron concentration (1 mg L-1) above which seedling growth
of Phragmites australis was severely inhibited. In addition,
P. australis is proposed as a more appropriate biological indicator
of iron and manganese pollutions [61]. Like phytoplankton,
the activities of antioxidative enzymes in aquatic
plants, such as Elodea nuttallii (Planch.) H. St. John,
are inhibited seriously by high iron concentration (beyond
10 mg L-1 [Fe3+]) [47].

Where they using chelated iron? No. Another factor not explained by many is how EDTA is typically broken easily by light from visible and UV spectrums during the day, leaving Ionic forms of iron floating around in a whitish haze. This also happens based on pH.

Instead of dosing tons of iron I have now moved to doing what plants expect: using a rich substrate with laterite for iron uptake via the roots. I still add some micro's, but 0.05ppm 3x a week is PLENTY.


Source: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...RWRU5fhjE1YD6g
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 03-27-2014, 03:40 PM
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Thanks for the link Positron. That was a very interesting read. It certainly does suggest that excess iron can be harmful to some plants. I didn't read any of the references for the article yet. The article on it's own clearly shows various toxic levels for some species. We need more information of this nature to determine maximum nutrient levels. The list of micro nutrients can get quite long depending on the micro mix being used. Having a minimum and maximum range for all of them would prove invaluable.
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