What can HUMIC ACIDS benefit our plants ? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-11-2014, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
Gamezawy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Egypt
Posts: 274
What can HUMIC ACIDS benefit our plants ?

Hi

Someone told me that HUMIC ACID can make the plants to absorbs the fertz and nutrients from the water with a better way so can this help us with anyway in our hobby ?

i have some and it is a gray\black powder
Gamezawy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-11-2014, 10:02 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
lochaber's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 2,317
Walstad writes a bit about potential benefits of humic acids, but she's referring to stuff that occurs just from breakdown of plant materials.

I think it would be difficult to determine an appropriate amount of powdered stuff to dose, and get that to work. On the other hand, just having plants in the tank will end up producing a constant source of humic acids.
lochaber is offline  
post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-12-2014, 04:31 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (267/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,609
Some may act as natural chelators for metals.
They also acidify the water, which can influence some balances of algal populations. Some fish seem to have less health issues with peat water etc.




Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline  
 
post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-12-2014, 01:14 PM
Saddletramp
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Chgo area
Posts: 156
Humic acid is not something many aquarist fool with or should fool with. Yes, in layman's terms, humates can "tie up" some of the metals in tap water and lower the pH.
One low molecular weight humate fraction is fulvic acid. According to the manufacturer of Fulv-Power, it acts to facilitate the transport of molecules through the cell wall. Thus, such things as fertilizers, etc. move into the cell more easily. They suggested using about half the normal amount of fertilizer when starting with Fulv- Power as it might shock the plant with too much ferts entering the cells.
Anyway, I used it for a while and have not been able to scientifically or practically see any difference in my emersed Crypt collection (they stand in about 1 1/2" of water).
Perhaps someone would test it in some stem tanks. Crypts do not grow fast enough to note rapid growth changes.
Bill
saddletramp is offline  
post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-12-2014, 01:18 PM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (19/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: fl
Posts: 360
@saddletramp. Just curious, sounds like you recommend that aquarist not fool with it. but why not? is it dangerous for fish or something? b/c i just put some into a rescape, so far no problems.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
chunkychun is offline  
post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-12-2014, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
Gamezawy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Egypt
Posts: 274
what do you mean with chelators for metals
Gamezawy is offline  
post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-12-2014, 02:05 PM
Saddletramp
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Chgo area
Posts: 156
Well, it is fine if you know you have fishes and plants which benefit from it. It all depends on your water parameters vs the flora and fauna you keep.
Why are you adding it? Once you know why YOUR system will benefit from it, then go for it.
There are not many humate experts around.
Keep us posted.
Bill
saddletramp is offline  
post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-12-2014, 05:23 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (267/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by saddletramp View Post
They suggested using about half the normal amount of fertilizer when starting with Fulv- Power as it might shock the plant with too much ferts entering the cells.
This is baloney.




Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline  
post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-12-2014, 06:40 PM
Saddletramp
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Chgo area
Posts: 156
Thanks for your to the point reply.
It sounds like you could offer some details regarding the function and use of various humates and their use and benefits in the aquarium. I am trying to learn.
Bill
saddletramp is offline  
post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-12-2014, 06:50 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Maine
Posts: 521
It sounds like these acids do to trace metals what every acid does: lower the pH. Doing this makes metals more available in the water column. Put HCL on a spot of ferric oxide (rust) What happens? It dissolves the iron and makes it possible to clean the rust.

Lower tank pH's will "dissolve" metals. I'm not saying that these things don't actually bind to the metals and make it easier for them to cross cell walls, but for that to happen there needs to be iron in the water column to begin with.
Positron is offline  
post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-12-2014, 07:47 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (267/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by saddletramp View Post
Thanks for your to the point reply.
It sounds like you could offer some details regarding the function and use of various humates and their use and benefits in the aquarium. I am trying to learn.
Bill
Experience(decades) trumps speculation?

Adding to that, a copy of Steinberg's Ecology of Humic substances in Freshwaters: specifically Ch 6,7 and 8.

What do you think produces said humic substances? Plants.
Plants cannot run away, move around etc, they have to deal with what is there. Humics are common in aquatic submersed systems. The Santa Fe River in FL is an extremely rich Humic system and it is full of aquatic plants.
Same with the lower Suwanee Refuge, most of the Everglades.

Natural/lakes/river studies do not support closed aquarium systems however.

But as Hobbyists, we have a long history of using peat for plants and fish.
I've used it for maybe 20 years?

the other issue is that no one really has any idea at what concentration the HS(Humic substances) are nor what type, but we can know a bit by using the same source material for HS, eg, pear moss. Driftwoods leach considerable HS as well.

Need a control? add Activated Carbon.
Water changes can be done also, but add different issues to plant growth etc.

These things can be done by aquarist (and have) over many years.
I see no evidence that they are detrimental other than aesthetics of pee colored water.

Steinberg's table 8.9 and 8.10 do not detail the various researcher's experimental methods, clearly they are NOT all the same and the depth and other factors come into play. He states that the evidence is circumstantial.

There is other discussion in the text as well.
Without knowing specifics about the HS in question and that we use, it's a bit tough to relate that information to our aquariums.

But............if a company is selling something, they will misuse such information in most cases to get your money in this hobby.
That is also something learned over time and based on a lot of experience also

Stick with good old peat moss. Driftwood etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Positron View Post
It sounds like these acids do to trace metals what every acid does: lower the pH. Doing this makes metals more available in the water column. Put HCL on a spot of ferric oxide (rust) What happens? It dissolves the iron and makes it possible to clean the rust.

Lower tank pH's will "dissolve" metals. I'm not saying that these things don't actually bind to the metals and make it easier for them to cross cell walls, but for that to happen there needs to be iron in the water column to begin with.
They do have some ligand complexing properties. Pages 245-256. This prevents uptake for fish/inverts of metals across their gills. Basically longer lived but lower toxicities. This is good for plants and metal requirements.

So the Humics can be both good and bad for different organism. A little is good, a lot of anything tends to be bad if I were to guess. So driftwood, plants etc= good, yellow water= not pretty, but not a problem either.
Plants really do not seem to care that much, but it's not an aesthetic most like.

So it's unlikely to be an issue for most planted hobbyist and the nuggets and all the other items Vendors sell you? They are only going to sell something pretty watered down. As many hobbyists find great ways to over dose and lard things on..........

So, save your $. By a sack of Peat if you wish.




Regards,
Tom Barr

Last edited by Darkblade48; 03-13-2014 at 02:22 AM. Reason: Back to back posts
plantbrain is offline  
post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 05:47 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: california
Posts: 727
I think i read somewhere they use this to make ADA aqua soil
inthepacific is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome