Help starting up EI dosing on 29g with CO2 - The Planted Tank Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2014, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
NickRummy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 157
Help starting up EI dosing on 29g with CO2

Hello everyone, I'm sure I'm way over complicating things, my head really hurts this morning.

I've just setup injected CO2 on my 29g using a reactor. I still have some tweaks to make on it to get it going right. Planned on introducing the CO2 this weekend where I can keep an eye on it.

While adding CO2 I wanted to use the EI dosing and replace the Excel and Flourish dosing the tank is currently on. I have (2) 24" T5HO bulbs on 8 hours daily right now, plant load is currently light. I purchased the EI dosing package from GLA to get me started until I learn more.

Using the Rota.La calc I put everything I got into an excel worksheet. I was basing off a 500ml dosing bottle. The calc will only let me choose 20ml dosing to get the K2SO4 into a soluble amount. Put my goal ranges in based off other recommendations on the forum.

I think my solution is ok, but how much do I actually dose and how often? According to the Calc this is saying to dose 20ml of this solution 2-4 times a week?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	29g-EI-Dosing.jpg
Views:	155
Size:	34.0 KB
ID:	280562  

NickRummy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2014, 04:37 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Raymond S.'s Avatar
 
PTrader: (6/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hot Springs Ar. 71901
Posts: 5,934
Perhaps I'm not understanding you but other Micro/Macro ferts are dosed separately
on every other day swap. This person sells Liquid EI fert packs made of dry ferts and the bottles for them so each(Micro and Macro) can be dosed separately.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...393&highlight=
Something about one of the nutrients in the Macros hindering the iron from being
absorbed by the plants so they use them on alternating days.
Am I not reading your plan correctly or do I just see one bottle ?

The shortest distance between any two points is a straight line...in the opposite direction...
Raymond S. is offline  
post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2014, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
NickRummy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 157
Thanks for the reply,

I guess I should have specified that I have the Macros and Micros listed separately as they will be separate solutions. In that post that you sent me Zorfox did mention that he was just dosing both at the same time, 5 minutes between the two. This is what he had for a 10g but it does not include K2SO4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
Here is the recipe for the solutions. This is for 10 gallons so simply double the 20 gallon tank dose.

Each dose is 5ml
In 500ml of water add...

KNO3 12 teaspoons, Raises NO3 10ppm
KH2PO4 1 teaspoons, Raises PO4 1ppm
Plantex CSM + B 3 teaspoons, Raises iron 0.22ppm

If you do more frequent water changes you will need to add additional fertilizers. You can see how much you need by using this calculator. Try and keep the nutrient levels in the ranges below.

CO2 range 25-35ppm
NO3 range 5-30ppm (KNO3)
K+ range 10-30ppm (K2SO4 or GH booster)
PO4 range 1.0-3.0 ppm (KH2PO4)
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher (?) (Plantex CSM +B)
GH range 3 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher (GH Booster)
NickRummy is offline  
 
post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2014, 05:31 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (538/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond S. View Post
Perhaps I'm not understanding you but other Micro/Macro ferts are dosed separately
on every other day swap. This person sells Liquid EI fert packs made of dry ferts and the bottles for them so each(Micro and Macro) can be dosed separately.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...393&highlight=
Something about one of the nutrients in the Macros hindering the iron from being
absorbed
by the plants so they use them on alternating days.
Am I not reading your plan correctly or do I just see one bottle ?

The reason that you shouldnt combine micros and macros is because iron will for a precipitate with phosphate and render it unavailable for the plants. It is possible to combine both but most people just dose separately.

Last edited by nilocg; 02-26-2014 at 10:47 PM. Reason: none given
nilocg is offline  
post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2014, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
NickRummy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 157
Ok, I think I'm making sense of this now. My above chart requires 20ml of that solution to be dosed 2-4 times a week. If I remove the K2SO4 from the solution then I could pack in more and go to 5ml 2-4 times a week.

So to get the K2S04 into the solution I have to reduce the amount of elements to make the K2SO4 soluble in the solution. This just means I'll only get 25 doses @ 20ml out of a 500ml bottle. If I ditch the K2SO4 I could do 100 doses @ 5ml out of a 500ml bottle.

I started playing around with the calc and seen that by going to the 20ml solution it reduces the elements by 4 times so you are technically still dosing the same amount of elements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilocg View Post
The reason that you should combine micros and macros is because iron will for a precipitate with phosphate and render it unavailable for the plants. It is possible to combine both but most people just dose separately.
I'm guessing you meant to type "shouldn't combine micros and macros"

Last edited by Darkblade48; 02-27-2014 at 04:46 AM. Reason: Back to back posts
NickRummy is offline  
post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2014, 08:12 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (538/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,010
Yes sorry it should have read "shouldnt combine them"
nilocg is offline  
post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-2014, 02:12 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zorfox's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 2,105
Hello Nick. Congratulations on your CO2 setup.

The dosing you listed that I had recommended was for a non CO2 injected tank if I recall correctly. Your dosing would be different. When using the calculator for CO2 injection use the "The Estimative Index" selection. These doses are based on 50% weekly water changes and daily dosing. In reality, you alternate micros and macros every other day. However, you're dosing something every day hence the term daily dosing.

Since you're using KNO3 I would hold off on dosing the potassium (K2SO4). The KNO3 will supply sufficient potassium in most cases. In your case, you have a lightly planted tank so there is no need to add extra potassium. Between the KNO3 and KH2PO4 you will be dosing 5ppm of potassium. Remember, EI dosing is providing excess nutrients. So those doses are above the necessary levels.

Mix each of the nutrients below in 500ml of water. Each dose is 10ml.

KNO3 13 teaspoons (67.123 g)
KH2PO4 2 teaspoons (10.224 g)
Plantex CSM +B 10 teaspoons (42.028 g)

Follow the dosing and water change schedule below.

Mon. KNO3 and KH2PO4
Tues. Plantex
Wed. KNO3 and KH2PO4
Thurs. Plantex
Fri. KNO3 and KH2PO4
Sat. Plantex
Sun. 50% water change (no dosing)

The only hitch to the nutrients above would be magnesium and calcium. GH is a measure of Mg and Ca. If you have a high GH you most likely will not need to add GH booster. However, adding enough GH booster to raise your GH 2-3 degrees with every water change isn't going to hurt anything (unless you have sensitive invertebrates). There is also an extra benefit of GH booster in that most contain potassium.
Zorfox is offline  
post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-2014, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
NickRummy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 157
Thank you so much for this reply, that helps a ton!

The last time I did a GH test was on 2/13 and it was 5, KH was 7 and PH 7.4-7.6. I've been doing 50/50 water changes using prime treated tap and RO water. When I was going treated tap only my GH was around 9 and my PH was around 7.8, KH was 6-7. I was wanting to lower it slightly for my Rams and started doing the RO mixture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post

Mix each of the nutrients below in 500ml of water. Each dose is 10ml.

KNO3 13 teaspoons (67.123 g)
KH2PO4 2 teaspoons (10.224 g)
Plantex CSM +B 10 teaspoons (42.028 g)
Ok just to make sure I knew how you got your numbers I plugged numbers into the calc and into my excel sheet. The highlighted green cells are dosing numbers and teaspoons to add to the solution. Looks like everything checks out well except I'm coming up with 8.5 teaspoons for the CSM +B. Are you bumping that number for any reason?

Is there a preference to when you dose? I've been dosing in the morning, thinking that the nutrients would best be used when the lights come on? So WC sunday, dose Monday morning, Tuesday morning, etc etc.

Attached excel chart below.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	29G-EI-Dosing-2-27-14.jpg
Views:	94
Size:	44.5 KB
ID:	281026  


Last edited by Darkblade48; 02-28-2014 at 03:08 AM. Reason: Back to back posts
NickRummy is offline  
post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-2014, 03:13 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zorfox's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 2,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickRummy View Post
Ok just to make sure I knew how you got your numbers I plugged numbers into the calc and into my excel sheet. The highlighted green cells are dosing numbers and teaspoons to add to the solution. Looks like everything checks out well except I'm coming up with 8.5 teaspoons for the CSM +B. Are you bumping that number for any reason?

Is there a preference to when you dose? I've been dosing in the morning, thinking that the nutrients would best be used when the lights come on? So WC sunday, dose Monday morning, Tuesday morning, etc etc.

Attached excel chart below.
Is there a reason I bumped Plantex dose? I simply used the results of the calculator. To get the grams use "The Estimative index". Look at the ppm of whatever you are dosing. That is the level you're targeting. To find the teaspoons, change the selection to "what is the result of my dose". Select tsp/caps. Now enter numbers until you find the closest tsp. equivalent.

That's where those numbers came from. It's funny you should question the dose. It's unrelated but dosing plantex to 0.25ppm of iron and then adding 0.25ppm of DTPA chelated iron is a better approach IMO. Firstly, the iron in plantex is EDTA which breaks down faster (around 24 hours) then DTPA which lasts longer (24-48 hours). So you're getting the best of both worlds. Secondly, I don't feel we need other trace levels as high as they are when using iron as the target for Plantex.

When to dose? The answer is whenever you want.

Think about it. We are keeping nutrient levels "above the barrel". So when we add more over that level is a non issue. We never want our nutrient levels to dip below a non-limiting point.

That's a pretty cool spreadsheet. Did you write it?
Zorfox is offline  
post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-2014, 03:27 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
NickRummy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 157
I don't see an option for converting the output measurements to tsp. I just looked up the conversion and it's 5g = 1tsp so all I did in the excel sheet was use a formula to divide the gram measurement by 5 which seems to work out for KNO3 and KH2PO4.

If you take all your gram measurements and divide by 5 they match up to the tsp measurement except the Plantex CSM +B. That's the only reason I was asking.

Yes, I made the excel sheet. It's very generic but it helped me see the overall numbers.

Here's the excel sheet. I just zipped it so feel free to play with it.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Dosing.zip (11.2 KB, 25 views)
NickRummy is offline  
post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-2014, 04:03 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zorfox's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 2,105
Here is a screen shot from the calculator calculating for teaspoons...



To do it mathematically divide the weight of one teaspoon (a constant from the calculator's source files) into the weight of our target dose, in the case of Plantex, 42.028. One teaspoon of Plantex CSM +B weighs 4.300 grams.

42.028 g / 4.3 g = 9.77 teaspoons

I rounded this number to ten. I always round up when I am calculating for non-limiting levels

Thanks for the spreadsheet. Oddly enough, I can write full blown applications in Pascal using Delphi but can't manage a spreadsheet lol.
Zorfox is offline  
post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-2014, 07:12 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
NickRummy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 157
Ahhh didn't see that as an option. Makes sense, plantex CSM + B must just be less dense than the others.

Thats funny about the spreadsheet. I only know the basics. I just use it a lot doing project management and it helps see overall numbers a lot better. Feel free to modify and share as needed! Will want to change the plantex formula to be divided by 4.3g instead of 5. Should probably verify the weight of the other elements as well.
NickRummy is offline  
post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-2014, 08:31 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zorfox's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 2,105
Yup. All the nutrients have a specific weight. That's what the calculator uses to crunch the numbers into teaspoons. That link I posted lists all of them.

I've been toying with the idea of writing a calculator. It seems we need one where the user can enter tank parameters and get appropriate methods. It's different for light levels, type of CO2, water change frequency and planting density maybe even a few more. It would be nice to make a few selections and calculate an appropriate dose based on tank parameters and maintenance schedule desired.
Zorfox is offline  
post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-28-2014, 01:51 AM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
NickRummy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 157
That would certainly be a great resource.
NickRummy is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome