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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-08-2014, 01:48 AM Thread Starter
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need help breaking this down

i am trying to use calcium gluconate and Magnesium gluconate to test out new fert, but i am not very good at breaking down the needed amount, please help me break it down.

i want to make a mix for calcium gluconate and Magnesium gluconate

500ML solution
50 gallon water
20ml per dose
want to raise the Ca at 1ppm and Mg at 0.2ppm, so what amount (Grams) do i add to the solution to get these ppm.

thank you and please do your best to give accurate answer, i will ROAK the person with "whoever is the first one to answer the question correctly will receive $20 toward any purchase on nilocg products"

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Last edited by happi; 02-08-2014 at 02:24 AM. Reason: update
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-08-2014, 07:19 AM
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What is the percentage of your calcium and magnesium gluconate?

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-08-2014, 07:58 AM
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50.811g CaGluconate per 500ml
16.143g MgGluconate per 500ml

Calculated as the following:
1ppm in 50gal (189.270kg) = 0.18927g

MM Ca =40.078g/mol. You need 0.0047mol of Ca gluc to satisfy this requirement. MM of CaGluc is 430.373g/mol. Multiplied by the desired volume and formula MV=MV (500ml/20ml). You get this value.

EDIT: Accidently calculated mg for 0.5ppm. I have since corrected it.
Calculation is similar for Mg but:
MM Mg = 24.305 g/mol
MM Mg gluc = 414.60 g/mol


Making the possibly invalid assumption that your powders are 100%. Adjustments should be easy though if they are less than 100%.

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Last edited by Jeffww; 02-08-2014 at 08:14 AM. Reason: EDIT: Accidently calculated mg for 0.5ppm. I have since corrected it.
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-08-2014, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkblade48 View Post
What is the percentage of your calcium and magnesium gluconate?
This. No way to calculate without the percentages.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-08-2014, 11:32 PM
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I am working on this with Happi, here is where I am getting them from:
http://www.bulksupplements.com/calcium-gluconate.html
http://www.bulksupplements.com/magnesium-gluconate.html
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 12:08 AM
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My calculations are correct then.

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 01:28 AM
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Since they didn't give a percentage we can't use molar mass here. They do give the weights of elemental Ca and Mg so it seems reasonable to calculate from that information.

To raise calcium to 1ppm you need X number of "doses" (Each dose weighs 5600mg and contains 504mg of elemental calcium)

I'm assuming 1mg/L = 1ppm since we are dealing with water


189.271 / 504 = 0.3755
189.271 is 37.55% of 504mg
Since we want 189.271mg to raise Ca to 1ppm in 50 gallons we need 37.55% of the total dose weight which is 5600
5600 * .3755 = 2102.8mg
So to raise 50 Gallons of water 1ppm we need to add 2102.8mg of the fertilizer
500ml / 25ml = 25
25 * 2102.8 = 52,570mg
So we add 52,570mg in 500ml of water


Magnesium works the same way

Since we want 0.5ppm divide the liters by 2 which is 94.6355. So we need 94.6355mg to raise Mg 0.5ppm

94.6355 / 70 = 1.3519
So we need 135.19% of the total dose weight to raise Mg 0.5ppm
1.3519 * 1300 = 1757.47
1757.47 * 25 = 43,936.75mg
S we add 43,936.75mg

Check my math but it seems correct to me
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
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snip

They claim their powders are 100% pure:
This calcium gluconate concentration is pharmaceutical grade and has no fillers whatsoever. It comes in a resealable bag and is meant to be stored in a place free from heat, moisture, and light.

This particular supplement contains no fillers of any kind. Each magnesium gluconate molecule contains 5.4% elemental magnesium.


thus molar mass should be an accurate representation.

They also argue that:

"Calcium gluconate is made up of about 13%"
which is patently wrong. Even going by their nutritional facts.

Each magnesium gluconate molecule contains 5.4% elemental magnesium.

This is also impossible. The only way to calculate this is using molar mass and if you did that you can't get 5.4% Mg. You would get ~5.8%. They used their nutrition label, which is rounded*** to calculate their mass.


***Additionally nutrition facts are rounded off and shouldn't be used for precise calculation.

see:http://www.nutrition411.com/forms/NLEARounding.pdf

In otherwords, your values are within the bounds of rounding error given by the FDA.

And finally the Mg is 0.2ppm. I made the same mistake before as well.

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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 03:00 AM
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If they're pure then the MM calculations should be accurate. I didn't read the entire label. It is funny now that I have.

First they say this...
Calcium L-Lactate has 13% which is more than calcium gluconate which only has 9% calcium content."

Then this...

"Calcium gluconate is made up of about 13%..."

It's actually 9.3124%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffww View Post
This is also impossible. The only way to calculate this is using molar mass and if you did that you can't get 5.4% Mg. You would get ~5.8%. They used their nutrition label, which is rounded*** to calculate their mass.
No doubt. In fact it's 5.8623%. That's a huge rounding lol

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Originally Posted by Jeffww View Post
And finally the Mg is 0.2ppm. I made the same mistake before as well.
That's weird we both made the same error lol
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 03:04 AM
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yah but your method of calculating was equally valid. And for all intensive purposes is pretty much as accurate as mine. Are you by chance chem related?

And yah it was pretty funny that we both made the same mistake.

edit: in the end it might be better to email them and ask what % is their gluconate powder. For all we know it could be 95% or 99%. This is the real question at hand.

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Last edited by Jeffww; 02-09-2014 at 03:37 AM. Reason: %s
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 04:01 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
Since they didn't give a percentage we can't use molar mass here. They do give the weights of elemental Ca and Mg so it seems reasonable to calculate from that information.

To raise calcium to 1ppm you need X number of "doses" (Each dose weighs 5600mg and contains 504mg of elemental calcium)

I'm assuming 1mg/L = 1ppm since we are dealing with water


189.271 / 504 = 0.3755
189.271 is 37.55% of 504mg
Since we want 189.271mg to raise Ca to 1ppm in 50 gallons we need 37.55% of the total dose weight which is 5600
5600 * .3755 = 2102.8mg
So to raise 50 Gallons of water 1ppm we need to add 2102.8mg of the fertilizer
500ml / 25ml = 25
25 * 2102.8 = 52,570mg
So we add 52,570mg in 500ml of water


Magnesium works the same way

Since we want 0.5ppm divide the liters by 2 which is 94.6355. So we need 94.6355mg to raise Mg 0.5ppm

94.6355 / 70 = 1.3519
So we need 135.19% of the total dose weight to raise Mg 0.5ppm
1.3519 * 1300 = 1757.47
1757.47 * 25 = 43,936.75mg
S we add 43,936.75mg

Check my math but it seems correct to me
isn't this suppose to be 20ml Per dose instead of 25 (bold letters)?? unless this is something else, i have no idea and please correct me if this is a mistake or something.

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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 04:07 AM Thread Starter
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Zorfox and Jeffww, thank you guys for helping us out so far, can you please correct me if this is right or wrong:

50.811g CaGluconate per 500ml
16.143g MgGluconate per 500ml

is this correct for 500ml solution, 20ml per dose in 50 gallon of water, each dose adding 1ppm of Ca and 0.2ppm Mg?

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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 06:08 AM
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As with any reagent, 100% pure is unlikely, despite what the manufacturer says. I would say 98% purity at best (quick search on Sigma reveals that 98% is quite common).

Quote:
Originally Posted by happi View Post
isn't this suppose to be 20ml Per dose instead of 25 (bold letters)?? unless this is something else, i have no idea and please correct me if this is a mistake or something.
No. You are multiplying by number of doses there (20 mL doses in 500 mL total volume is equal to 25 doses).

Both Jeffww and Zorfox's calculations seem correct, though I only checked the calcium gluconate calculation (the magnesium gluconate is done similarly).

Anthony


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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 03:11 PM
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isn't this suppose to be 20ml Per dose instead of 25 (bold letters)?? unless this is something else, i have no idea and please correct me if this is a mistake or something.
The 25 is how many doses are in 500ml, 500/20= 25

We first need to calculate a single dose then multiply times 25 for a solution.

Here is the math for the molar mass method. Rather than lookup all the masses for each element then make all the calculations just use a molar mass calculator.


Mass composition for Magnesium Gluconate (MgC12H22O14)
Mg 5.8623 %
C 34.7634 %
H 5.3485 %
O 54.0259 %

50 gallons is 189.271 Liters

Reduce the volume to the percentage we want to add which is 0.2ppm

189.271 / 0.2 = 37.8542

So to raise anything to 0.2ppm we need 37.8542mg
Since magnesium is 5.8623% of the mass we need to calculate how much we need to raise Mg to 0.2ppm

(X) * (.058623) = 37.8524
X = 37.8524/0.058623
X = 645.72267

So we need 645.72267mg of this to raise 50 gallons of water 0.2ppm

Since there are 25 20ml doses in 500ml we multiply times 25 to give use the total amount to add
645.72267 * 25 = 16,143.0667mg

So adding 16,143.0667mg to 500ml of water will create the solution.

If you do the math NOT using molar mass the result is similar. However as Jeff said there is rounding done so the total is not as accurate.

37.8542 / 70 = 0.5408
0.5408 * 1300 = 703.0066
703.0066 * 25 = 17575.1643mg

As Darkblade said, these chemicals are probably not 100% pure. So technically neither calculation is dead accurate. However, both are close enough. So to answer your question Happi, Yes those numbers are as accurate as can be expected.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
The 25 is how many doses are in 500ml, 500/20= 25

We first need to calculate a single dose then multiply times 25 for a solution.

Here is the math for the molar mass method. Rather than lookup all the masses for each element then make all the calculations just use a molar mass calculator.


Mass composition for Magnesium Gluconate (MgC12H22O14)
Mg 5.8623 %
C 34.7634 %
H 5.3485 %
O 54.0259 %

50 gallons is 189.271 Liters

Reduce the volume to the percentage we want to add which is 0.2ppm

189.271 / 0.2 = 37.8542

So to raise anything to 0.2ppm we need 37.8542mg
Since magnesium is 5.8623% of the mass we need to calculate how much we need to raise Mg to 0.2ppm

(X) * (.058623) = 37.8524
X = 37.8524/0.058623
X = 645.72267

So we need 645.72267mg of this to raise 50 gallons of water 0.2ppm

Since there are 25 20ml doses in 500ml we multiply times 25 to give use the total amount to add
645.72267 * 25 = 16,143.0667mg

So adding 16,143.0667mg to 500ml of water will create the solution.

If you do the math NOT using molar mass the result is similar. However as Jeff said there is rounding done so the total is not as accurate.

37.8542 / 70 = 0.5408
0.5408 * 1300 = 703.0066
703.0066 * 25 = 17575.1643mg

As Darkblade said, these chemicals are probably not 100% pure. So technically neither calculation is dead accurate. However, both are close enough. So to answer your question Happi, Yes those numbers are as accurate as can be expected.
thanks Zorfox, this math is over my head lol, i will have to study it further and this will help me understand the calculation for the other stuff i need to know about. thanks again

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