Chelated or not? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-30-2007, 02:50 PM Thread Starter
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Chelated or not?

Kind of a stupid question.

But do micro nutrients used in aquariums really need to be chelated?

The reason I ask is I'm thinking about having a custom trace mineral mix made up. I can get most of the micros chelated but not all of them.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-30-2007, 03:00 PM
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After doing a bit of online study, I've got .01 to share (not even .02 really).

According to Wikipedia : Such chelating agents include the porphyrin rings in hemoglobin or chlorophyll and the Fe3+-chelating siderophores secreted by microorganisms

So if chelating agents are secreted by microorganisms, which are prevalent in our water, wouldn't non-chelated metals become chelated once in contact with said agents?

I'm not a biologist or chemist, so I really do not fully understand how these nutrients would form bonds with agents and at what rate this bond would occur in our tanks.

Would an abundance of non-chelated nutrients sitting in our tank be bad for fish?

I suppose I have more questions than answers.


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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-30-2007, 03:14 PM
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Greg Watson used Chelated terms in his trace marketing a lot,
so even if it makes no real difference, you may need to do it,
simply to equate your product with perceived effective quality.


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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-30-2007, 03:45 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation

it's more stable (shelf life) and soluble


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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-30-2007, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistergreen View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation

it's more stable (shelf life) and soluble

Chelated metals are more soluble and usable by plants, but non-chelated metals will become chelated by secretions of microorganisms in our tanks, as well as in nature.

If these secretions are prevalent in our tanks, and those nutrients that are non-chelated become chelated rapidly, why would it matter if we add them in either state?

Rex's question was "is it really necessary" . The answer will depend on how fast the said bond can be formed in our tanks. If you drop a rusty nail in your tank, will your plants absorb the iron?

I'm inclined upon further review to say it isn't necessary, but like mistergreen said, shelf life of non-chelated nutrients may be shorter than desired.


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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-30-2007, 04:16 PM
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http://www.plantprod.com/US/products...antprod.com%22

All the nutrients except for Mo are Chelated in CSM. Then, I believe, Boric Acid is added for B.

Some folks have mentioned that they prefer the Turf Micronutrient Mix over CSM because it already has Boron in it. Everything else is the same percentage as CSM. The analysis is included in the same link above.

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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-30-2007, 04:27 PM Thread Starter
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Greg Watson sold Plantex CSM+B. Same as I did and now do again. But I'm trying to find a mix with less copper and more iron. And perhaps a bit cheaper. Not all minerals in the Plantex are chelated. The Mo and B are not.

If chelated minerals are not needed I can cut the price of the mix way way down.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-30-2007, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Grigg View Post

If chelated minerals are not needed I can cut the price of the mix way way down.
Which minerals in specific are you questioning?


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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-30-2007, 10:14 PM
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Not sure how much this will help, but its a quick read. Apparently, Seachem doesn't use chelators on their iron and it gives a brief reason why:

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HTH


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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-01-2007, 12:15 AM Thread Starter
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The Boron and Molybdenum will not be chelated in most any mix.

I could do the whole trace mix with sulfates and such and cut the cost way down. If I did a totally non-chelated trace mix I could most likely sell it for $2-$3 a pound.
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-01-2007, 06:26 PM
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so what your talking about offering would be a bulk powdered nutrient mix equivalent to tpn or regular flourish?

that would be great, im tired of ordering every month.


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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-01-2007, 08:05 PM
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Check out some of the articles on the Barr report, to my recollection, Iron in particular is amost totally useless unless chelated. Research at www.barrreport.com. I would suggest chelation is totally necesarry...could be wrong though.
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-02-2007, 12:36 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmith782 View Post
so what your talking about offering would be a bulk powdered nutrient mix equivalent to tpn or regular flourish?

that would be great, im tired of ordering every month.
Already have that. Just trying to reduce the cost.
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-02-2007, 01:51 AM
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Chelated or not??

2 very interesting link on chelation.

As I undestand... The only way iron became not usable by plants will be by mineralization, something almost impossible in our tank. Ferrous, Ferric, complexed iron will always be somewhat available to plants...



http://2the4.net/iron.htm

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plant.../msg00022.html


Quote:
IRON OXIDATION

The time required for uncomplexed ferrous iron to undergo oxidation to the ferric state is dependent on many factors, the dominant being: pH; temperature; dissolved oxygen level; and the presence of other soluble ions. The lower the pH and temperature the longer the time required for completion of the oxidation reaction. Increasing dissolved oxygen decreases the time required for oxidation. For example:

At pH 7.0, 90% Fe+2 oxidation requires 1 hour at 21o C and
10 hours at 5o C. At 21o C
At pH 8.0, 90% Fe+2 oxidation occurs in 30 seconds,
at pH 6.0 it requires 100 hours.
The critical dissolved oxygen concentration is 2 mg/L. Below that ferrous iron oxidation occurs slowly.
Quote:
IRON COMPLEXING

Ferrous iron is soluble as a cation, ferric iron is not. However, ferric iron can form soluble complexes with many inorganic and organic ligands.
Humic acid, fulvic acid and tannic acid are examples on non-contaminant organic complexes. Phosphate also serves as a very effective complexing agent for iron.
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