Dead Cherry Shrimp - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 06:06 PM Thread Starter
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Dead Cherry Shrimp

Yesterday I removed some old plants and planted 10 new plants, did a water change and everything looked great. Today I wake up and all my cherry shrimp were dead. My fish are ok but I don't know what happened to the shrimp. I checked my water and everything was good except my nitrite(NO3) levels are elevated. My nitrite levels have always been zero and now they are in the caution levels according to my tset kit. Can any one tell me what might be going on?
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 07:14 PM
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I would guess you had anaerobic areas in the substrate and you disturbed them when you planted. Do you have any snails that burrow? Snails, while ugly and annoying, can help by moving dirt around and making sure you don't get those bubbles.

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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 07:42 PM
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^That would be my guess as well. What is your KH? It could also be a big shift from stirring up all the substrate and the big water change if you don't have good buffering, but I'd lean more toward the anaerobic spots. Does your water have a sulfer smell now?

You lost ALL your shrimp? wow, that bites.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishscale View Post
I would guess you had anaerobic areas in the substrate and you disturbed them when you planted. Do you have any snails that burrow? Snails, while ugly and annoying, can help by moving dirt around and making sure you don't get those bubbles.
You are dealing with an amateur here who just got started with his first planted aquarium. Can you explain a little more what you mean by "anaerobic areas". Most of what I have learned has come from this forum. Thanks
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 09:48 PM
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air pockets that are stuck under the subtract, over time, turns into poisonous gas....kinda simplified meaning i gas
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
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I regularly vacuum the substrate to remove all the built up debris and crud that accumulates in the tank. How do I go about cleaning the tank without killing my shrimp? Does that also effect fish?
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 10:21 PM
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you should not have to vacuum a planted tank.
we all do it occasionally, but not regularly
perhaps you are over stocked or over feeding.
that does not help explain the sudden die off,
it's just a related observation I hope will help.


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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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you should not have to vacuum a planted tank.
we all do it occasionally, but not regularly
perhaps you are over stocked or over feeding.
that does not help explain the sudden die off,
it's just a related observation I hope will help.
Maybe I vacuum too much. So are you saying that I should let the stuff that accumulates on the bottom of the tank stay there and not remove it. Like I said before I am new to this and I thought I should be removing the junk that builds up.

I only have 2 guppies, 2 danios, 2 ottos and 2 corys in the tank now. I had 6 cherry shrimp but as of today they are all gone.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 10:50 PM
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So are you saying that I should let the stuff that accumulates on the bottom of the tank stay there and not remove it.
No, I'm suggesting your tank is generating too much "stuff" on the bottom to begin with.
that "stuff" is from;
-left over food
-fish fecal matter
-decaying plant matter
a well balanced planted tank has little or no "stuff" on the bottom because the microorganisms and bacteria and filtration in your tank and weekly water changes are all able to keep up with the bioload the fish and plants generate. people who keep fish only tanks with no plants or limited filtration are the ones who need to vacuum regularly.

so your regular need to vacuum leads me to believe that;
-have too many fish
-you feed them way too much
-not enough filtration (physical & biological & chemical)
-have an unhealthy plant environment
that causes more decay than new growth.
-have gravel that is too large or shallow to
properly host the mulm needed in your tank.


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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 10:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spypet View Post
No, I'm suggesting your tank is generating too much "stuff" on the bottom.
that "stuff" is from;
-left over food
-fish fecal matter
-decaying plant matter
a well balanced planted tank has little or no "stuff" on the bottom because the microorganisms and bacteria in your tank are able to keep up with the bioload the fish and plants generate.

so again, I suspect you either have;
too many fish
or feed them way too much.
Like I posted, I only have 8 fish in a 29 gallon tank and keep feeding to a minimum so I do not think that is the problem. The problem is due to lack of experience I don't know exactly if what I have accumulated in the substrate is normal or not. Its not like I have an inch of crud laying on top of the substrate in fact you really can't see anything until I place the siphon tube into the substrate, thats when you see the crud being vacuumed out. I guess that I need to just leave it alone and do water changes without removing any debris. I just wish I knew this prior to murdering my shrimp.
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 11:03 PM
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I know you started this thread to pinpoint your shrimp die-off but
we stumbled on a more important issue I think you need to address.

OK, let's try to pinpoint why your tank is generating so much crude.

-how large are your gravel grains, or tell us the brand & type, also how many inches deep of gravel?

-tell us exactly what filtration system you use, and all the media used inside, also do you have an undergravel filter pan.

-honestly and accurately describe what kind and how much food you drop in your tank, and how often you do it.

-you mentioned your fish, but do you also have snails? if so, how large and populous do they tend to be.


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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 11:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spypet View Post
I know you started this thread to pinpoint your shrimp die-off but
we stumbled on a more important issue I think you need to address.

OK, let's try to pinpoint why your tank is generating so much crude.

-how large are your gravel grains, or tell us the brand & type, also how many inches deep of gravel?

-tell us exactly what filtration system you use, and all the media used inside, also do you have an under gravel filter pan.

-honestly and accurately describe what kind and how much food you drop in your tank, and how often you do it.

-you mentioned your fish, but do you also have snails? if so, how large and populous do they tend to be.
1. I use eco-complete: 3 inches

2. My filter is an Eheim 2224 canister with EHFIMECH (Hollow Ceramic Rings) in the first media container with a coarse filter pad on top. The second media container has Ehfisubstrat biological media with a carbon pad on top of that. Then finally a fine filter pad is placed on top of everything. The canister is set up according to Eheim's instructions. No under gravel filtration.

3. I feed twice a day and mix it up between flakes, freeze dried worms and algae wafers for the corys and the shrimp. Like I said I only feed a little at a time and watch to see when the fish stop eating. Very rarely is there any food left over. I really watch to make sure I don't overfeed.

4. No snails. I had a couple but removed them. They were reproducing like crazy, babies every where, so I slowly removed them from the tank.
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 12:15 AM
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If You vacuum your substrate regularly then a die off from mulm build up seems unlikely. Your substrate probably isn't anywhere near as dirty or in need of "correcting" as spypet is interpreting it to be.

Anaerobic pockets sometimes contain Hydrogen Sulfide which is deadly. If I recall, this tank has been set up for 2 1/2 months or less, correct? If so, its extremely unlikely that You are going to generate hydrogen sulfide in that amount of time unless you have zero water movement--even then--I doubt it. Plus You have been vacuuming Your substrate regularly creating movement, disturbance.

What probably happened is an OD from too much NH4 (ammonia) in the water column from disturbing the substrate. The water change that You did probably was not enough to to reduce the NH4 level and the shrimp succumbed. TB has told us time and again: when we disrupt the substrate--do a 50% WC to help eliminate green water from blooming. It just may not have been enough for the shrimp which are very NH4 sensitive.

HTH


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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 12:37 AM
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Naja, would you recommend switching from Carbon pads to Seachem Purigen
paks? my thinking is the carbon is removing ferts the plants could be using,
so the plants are not as efficient as they could be at supporting the bioload,
also carbon is not doing as good a job removing Nitrites as Purigen would do,
at least until the biofilter media inhabitants do a better job keeping up with it.

mcd, despite your obvious precautions, it still sounds like you are overfeeding.
unless you have fish/shrimp fry, feeding even less, once a day, should be fine.

don't be too concerned with crude under your gravel, that's good crude
it's the stuff you seem to accumulate on top or your gravel that's an issue.


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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 12:49 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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If You vacuum your substrate regularly then a die off from mulm build up seems unlikely. Your substrate probably isn't anywhere near as dirty or in need of "correcting" as spypet is interpreting it to be.

Anaerobic pockets sometimes contain Hydrogen Sulfide which is deadly. If I recall, this tank has been set up for 2 1/2 months or less, correct? If so, its extremely unlikely that You are going to generate hydrogen sulfide in that amount of time unless you have zero water movement--even then--I doubt it. Plus You have been vacuuming Your substrate regularly creating movement, disturbance.

What probably happened is an OD from too much NH4 (ammonia) in the water column from disturbing the substrate. The water change that You did probably was not enough to to reduce the NH4 level and the shrimp succumbed. TB has told us time and again: when we disrupt the substrate--do a 50% WC to help eliminate green water from blooming. It just may not have been enough for the shrimp which are very NH4 sensitive.

HTH
I think that is what might have happened. I removed a lot of plants and planted numerous others. I also did a big clean that did disturb the gravel causing a lot of crud to mix into the water. I guess the shrimp couldn't handle it.
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