Do you need to cycle a tank if the filter is cycled - The Planted Tank Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2013, 05:17 AM Thread Starter
Wannabe Guru
 
shift's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kelowna
Posts: 1,901
Do you need to cycle a tank if the filter is cycled

Do you need to cycle a new tank if you load the filter with bio rings taken from an established tank?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
shift is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2013, 06:38 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Texan78's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: North Texas
Posts: 835
I would at least use something like API Quick Start as well and then you should be good to go.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Texan78 is offline  
post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2013, 07:21 AM
jrh
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (14/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 651
as long as you start feeding the filter immediately, then no, you don't need to cycle the tank.

It should be able to handle whatever bio-load it was handling before. If you increase, it'll take some time to ramp up. If you give it less bio-load, or none, then the good bacteria will start dying-down or dying off completely.

I don't know if it does anything wacky at this point, like form spores, so that getting it started again will be easier, or not. I'd assume the bacteria has just starved, and you'll need to do the cycle again until tests show that it's cycled again.
jrh is offline  
 
post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2013, 07:36 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Raymond S.'s Avatar
 
PTrader: (6/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hot Springs Ar. 71901
Posts: 5,934
I have very little experience/w but plenty of negative reviews on beneficial bacteria other than Tetra Safe Start which I use
regularly so only feel qualified to say that it works. But the reason to put filter media in from a cycled tank is to not need to use it.
Just in case you would like to however it is cheaper even/w the shipping from Petsmountain than elsewhere but takes 5-8
days to get it that way.
There is one catch to using "broke in" filter media however. The bacteria die rather quickly if no ammonia is present for them
to feed on. But fish waste takes 4-6 days to begin giving off ammonia in some cases. Solution(that I have used) is to put
the fish(a few less than what were in the tank where the filter media is from) into the tank first and test the water till you
get a .5 ammonia level and THEN add the "broke in" filter media(and/or the Tetra Safe Start) so that the bacteria have some food
available to them. Works for me but only used this a couple of times so far.
And I believe that this is the reason lots of people get bad results from beneficial bacteria additives when they use them as I
think they put both the fish and the BB in at the same time letting the BB die before any ammonia is there.
Only an opinion though...
Raymond S. is offline  
post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2013, 10:57 AM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Hampstead, NC
Posts: 339
Similar to my set up of a temporary QT. I placed a bubble filter in an established tank for 3 weeks to build a colony in that. I filled and added prime to a new 10G tank. I put the filter in the 10g and I also added two rocks and a filter pad to the 10 from the donner tank. I checked params next day and all was well. I added 1/2 teaspoon of ammonia and tested four hours later and had 4 ppm. Tested the next day and found ammonia 0.5, nitrites 5, and nitrates 20.

Wound up running the tank for another 2 weeks before it settled down and had a working bacteria colony.

50G Low Tech Planted Tank- Community Fish
120G Low Tech Planted Tank- Community Fish
10G QT
MarkM is offline  
post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2013, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
Wannabe Guru
 
shift's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kelowna
Posts: 1,901
I would be using bio rings from my 84G tank which easily has 80+ Tetras/rasboras.. so the bacteria will be more than enough.. if anything it would probally die. off..

I plan on making the new one a shrimp tanks.... but i could throw in some CPD's for the first week or two to ensure the filter stays going strong.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
shift is offline  
post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2013, 04:15 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Contra Costa CA
Posts: 11,721
Whatever tank the filter was running on has fish, right?

And that filter is part of the system that is handling the ammonia from those fish, right?

In a mature tank the filter might have roughly half the population of bacteria, and the other half is all over the tank. The total population depends on how much fish-mass is in the tank, and how many other things (plants) are competing for the ammonia.

So, when you remove the filter, the tank will lack enough bacteria to handle the waste from that many fish. (but plants can help out a lot)

So... when you remove the filter, also remove some of the fish. Keep things in balance. If you move the whole filter to a new tank, and it is well planted, then I would move about half the fish.

If you want to add some insurance, then add a bottled products that contains Nitrospira species of bacteria to both tanks.

If you know you will not be adding fish to the new tank for a few weeks then I would move a lot less of the filter media. I have often removed up to 25% of the filter media from a well cycled tank (even without plants) and the donor tank was OK.
Then do the fishless cycle in the new tank. With a jump start of even a little filter media it ought to go pretty fast. You can make it go even faster by adding Nitrospira species of bacteria.

Here is the fishless cycle:

Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details.

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium.

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks.

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water.
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine.
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine.
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated.
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful.
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation.
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort.
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required.
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different.

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else.
At the time this was written the right species could be found in:
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others.
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast.

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though.
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below.

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm.

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm.

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm.

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours.

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high!
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1b) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off.
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better.
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen.
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well.
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations.

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.
Diana is offline  
post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2013, 04:32 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Raymond S.'s Avatar
 
PTrader: (6/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hot Springs Ar. 71901
Posts: 5,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by shift View Post
I would be using bio rings from my 84G tank which easily has 80+ Tetras/rasboras.. so the bacteria will be more than enough.. if anything it would probally die. off..

I plan on making the new one a shrimp tanks.... but i could throw in some CPD's for the first week or two to ensure the filter stays going strong.
Probably should have asked what the size is from the beginning. When you mentioned Shrimp tank it caused
a moment of clarity. They have a very small bio-load(not when by-the-hundreds) and I've had 50--60 living fine
in a ten before...pause...(just waiting for the guy to jump in and say..."what! I took out 50 from my 20G last
week and you couldn't tell any had been taken out !!)..LOL.... But I understand you couldn't just buy that many and
dump them in an uncycled tank. The bacteria grew as I put 9 shrimp in there at first and ended up/w 50-60.
It wouldn't hurt to leave some room in the filter so that on the fifth day you could put in some more ceramic rings
from that seed tank. Sounds like a good source because of the stocking level.
Here's a question for you: You said you'd put in some CPD's...is there a chance they could co-exist or is that the
last time you would see baby shrimp ? Or even in addition would they knock off the adults as they molt ?
Guess you can see I've considered these for my ten G tank/w the Banded Pigmy sunfish before.
Can you give a link to pictures of the new one after it's up and the 84G also ? I try to go to "user's gallery" and in
most cases it don't work for me somehow, 1 out of 10 times perhaps but not usually.
Raymond S. is offline  
post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-28-2013, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
Wannabe Guru
 
shift's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kelowna
Posts: 1,901
I have 3 boxes of bio rings in my fx5 in the 84g so I don't think a handful of bio rings would affect it too much. How ever your comment about half the bacteria living within the tank contents is a good point I did not consider

84g stock
18-20 rummy nose
5 harlequins
15-20 neons
40+ cpd's
Long fin Pelco (l44?)
10 Ish ammanos
3 gbr's
entire snail
5-8 ottos

The tank


New tank is a 6g topless edge. Filter will be a zoomed 501
I'm going to do a HC carpet. Undecided what else for plans for now

Tank

This will be mainly a shrimp tank. I may do a few cpd's initially just to keep the bacteria going. I suspect the mature bio rings should be enough to eat up any ammonia in the tank but I will test it of course to ensure is a fish friendly environment.

Long term I will prob add some fancy shrimp and if I do any fish it may just be some tiny escalation mark rasboras from another tank ...tbd

As for CPD and shrimp. I do have PFR and CPDs in the same tank. I have not seen any aggression from CPD and shrimp and believe they are peaceful together. New born shrimp might become snacks if the CPD is full grown but I wouldn't worry to much if you have a comply established. It has slowly grown on its own so some make it!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
shift is offline  
post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-29-2013, 12:35 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Raymond S.'s Avatar
 
PTrader: (6/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hot Springs Ar. 71901
Posts: 5,934
Confined by virtue of a lease to ten G tanks. Don't really know how they would react if they knew I had two of them either.
Struggling/w one at the moment due to low stocking causing low nitrates/high organics so BGA keeps returning.
On the track to recovery though. Think I have one fairly adult male and one fairly young female Banded Pigmy
sunfish and a possible other adult(I think male) that only comes out every other month or so and keeps me
guessing if he's still alive. He is wild caught quite accidentally as I scooped him up in a bucket of "collected" water
from a cypress bottom land type stream bed that opens up into a man made "dam up the stream" type pond.
The water in there is a 6.2-6.4 Ph and has various Daphnia so I get some now and then. He was 5/16"th when I
got him. So now I've added 5 RCS to give a reason for flake food as the BPS don't eat it. Bought Potassium
Nitrate yesterday and have Phosphate coming to give me the Macros the tank has been missing. Everything moving
towards a healthier tank so the BGA won't return the next time I kill it. I'd be thrilled/w a 55 for these as Daphnia
in every imaginable type could colonize it for the cover.
But you have a real tank instead of a dream and it's great looking too. Hope to see more shots of the new one as
it progresses.
Actually they live on any hard or semi hard surfaces like the glass, top half inch or so of the sub. and plant stems
and leaves. For this reason I never clean the whole tank at once. Couldn't even if I wanted to as the back wall
and other wall surfaces are gravel/rock held on by silicone. I do weird stuff to my tanks in addition to cultivating algae.
I put the gravel on the back to give something for the algae/moss to cling to. Got carried away/w it on the second
one but I'll replace that one in the spring.
Raymond S. is offline  
post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-29-2013, 08:10 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Contra Costa CA
Posts: 11,721
Looks good:
The large tank has enough fish and other livestock to have plenty of bacteria built up on the bio media in its filter.

Taking a small amount out of the filter, plenty for the small tank, will not be missed on the large tank.

Yes, keep some fish in the small tank to keep the bacteria fed. If you add a bit too much fish food that will feed plenty of bacteria. When you are ready to add the shrimp there should be no problem. Especially if you take the fish out.
Diana is offline  
post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-29-2013, 08:24 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
jpappy789's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 1,090
Nitrifier doubling time is around 24ish hours...relatively slow compared to other bacteria, but pretty quick in the grand scheme of things. As mentioned, should be no problem at all "removing" bacteria from the established tank.

I always treat it kind of like the end of a regular cycle...test with some ammonia first just to make sure everything's being processed like it should.

If you're at all worried, just keep an eye on things. If there's any spike on the established tank, it should be minor and easily taken care of with water changes.
jpappy789 is offline  
post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-29-2013, 09:50 PM
Algae Grower
 
ftwchopper's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: woodstock connecticut
Posts: 83
If that's ADA aquasoil in the new shrimp tank,The seeded filter will not convert all the ammonia that the substrate will produce...plan on several water changes..
ftwchopper is offline  
post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-29-2013, 10:38 PM Thread Starter
Wannabe Guru
 
shift's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kelowna
Posts: 1,901
Fluval stratum. Ammonia free


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
shift is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome