Acceptable Range of PH fluctuations & other general Newbie questions & discussion - The Planted Tank Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-27-2013, 10:39 AM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
Elyssa's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 222
Acceptable Range of PH fluctuations & other general Newbie questions & discussion

Another newbie question. I'll be getting my CO2 going this morning and plan on monitoring the PH. My KH in the tank comes in at 107.4PPM (6dkh). PH is about 7.6 or so.

What is the acceptable range of fluctuations as to not stress the fish. I'll be testing the PH right before I turn the lights on this morning. I have to hook up the reactor and plan on running the CO2 a half hour to hour before lights come on in the future.

I'm running 2 54W T5HO with option of 2 more bulbs. So will be figuring the lighting out as well.

I just want to know how often I should be taking PH readings throughout the day and when I should just stop the flow of CO2 and for how long.

What are the best practices?

Thanks.

Last edited by Elyssa; 03-01-2013 at 01:42 PM. Reason: typo
Elyssa is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-27-2013, 01:43 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
there is no ph fluctuation limit for co2

as long as there is plenty of oxygen and you don't put more co2 than the fish can handle, the ph is irrelevant

Sump Pimp #7

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
HD Blazingwolf is offline  
post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-27-2013, 02:47 PM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: In an aquarium nearby
Posts: 447
There might be some unwanted side effects if the pH drops too much but not directly on fish. AFAIK fish don't care about pH but the side effects can affect them. The nitrifying bacteria slow their activity in acidic water.

Have read at this

Quote:
pH

The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.

The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.3-7.5

Nitrobacter will grow more slowly at the high pH levels typical of marine aquaria and preferred by African Rift Lake Cichlids. Initial high nitrite concentrations may exist. At pH levels below 7.0, Nitrosomonas will grow more slowly and increases in ammonia may become evident. Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited at a pH of 6.5. All nitrification is inhibited if the pH drops to 6.0 or less. Care must be taken to monitor ammonia if the pH begins to drop close to 6.5. At this pH almost all of the ammonia present in the water will be in the mildly toxic, ionized NH3+ state.
danielt is offline  
 
post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-27-2013, 03:01 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
Elyssa's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 222
I was confused about the issue from reading here and there.

Am I right in thinking the Ph would lower a bit and then raise back up and since it's more of a gradual up and down, the fish are not affected? It's more PH shock when it bounces from one point to another quickly?

I'm not to worried about the PH dropping to affect the bacteria within the span that the CO2 would be running. My water is not soft.

The whole notion of PH controller was throwing me off, as well.

With the oxygen level, is there away to know how much you have or is it more observe the fish for CO2 poisoning.

I just want to cover my bases before running this. I will be turning it off an hour before lights out.

Thanks.
Elyssa is offline  
post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-27-2013, 07:06 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
happi's Avatar
 
PTrader: (21/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 3,139
Send a message via Yahoo to happi
i use 100% RO with 0kh and 2-3Gh, PH is 6<, with co2 its even less. i have yet to see any fish being killed by PH sudden change because i do 60-70% water changes during the day once a week, never killed anything with co2 or water changes, unless i gas the fish. however sudden change in Kh could kill them, this is the main reason i prefer not messing with KH with baking soda or chemicals.

DIY Trace/Micro/Macro Recipe
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


DIY Trace/Micro/Calculation Etc
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
happi is offline  
post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-27-2013, 07:51 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielt View Post
There might be some unwanted side effects if the pH drops too much but not directly on fish. AFAIK fish don't care about pH but the side effects can affect them. The nitrifying bacteria slow their activity in acidic water.

Have read at this
ah yes but we have plants that help control that
and truly, there are other bacteria that can grow that process ammonia at a slower rate, if this wasn't the case the dirted world we know of outside of planted tanks would have much more ammonia than what is present.
there are always different species where bacteria is concerned. but yes the species listed do function best at those rates. having lots of bio media allows more of the same to be present

my tap water is 7.8 ph, and tank water is 6.5
i change 80% weekly with no ill effects on fish. my rainbowfish are spawning even, and are clearly happy (even more so now they have a bigger home)

Sump Pimp #7

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
HD Blazingwolf is offline  
post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-27-2013, 09:32 PM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: In an aquarium nearby
Posts: 447
@happi

Please expand on the kH effect. It's the first time I read about kH being a killer of fish. Quite the contrary when we talk about CO2 poisoning. Adding baking soda will increase kH and lower CO2 levels as that gas will prevent oxygen to bind to hemoglobin. CO2 binds faster thus depriving the fish of the needed oxygen.

@thread starter

I bounced the pH multiple times and didn't experience any deaths. I also read multiple times about this pH shock only to find it is a myth. CO2 and TDS are better killers than the dreaded pH swing.

@HD Blazingwolf

Acidic pH inhibits enzyme activity and even breaks them down. There's no bacteria that can do well without enzymes, even plants are affected by this. A pH lower than 6 is not good for just about anything as the water will be highly unstable chemically wise.

Of course, corrections are welcome!
danielt is offline  
post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-27-2013, 11:16 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
Elyssa's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 222
HDblazingwolf, happi, danielt,

Thanks.

Last edited by Elyssa; 02-28-2013 at 09:29 AM. Reason: typo
Elyssa is offline  
post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-28-2013, 01:30 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
If temperature, kh, and gh are the same but the ph is 1.0 off this is a much safer fish addition than ph the same and kh and or gh being different.
Put simply.
And daniel. Ill try to dig up the article on neem oil, its effects on nitrogen bacteria reduction, and ph efficiency.
Basically a study was done on its effect as a pesticide that would not harm the nitrogen cycle. At ph above 7 things were awesome. Closer to 6 things slowed down but around 5 picked up again.
And neem oil had different effects as well.

Sump Pimp #7

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
HD Blazingwolf is offline  
post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-28-2013, 10:40 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
Not quite the article i was looking for but a brief quote applies here

Quote:
Because there are only a few species of nitrifying bacteria, nitrification is much more sensitive to environmental conditions than are most other N transformations, which are carried out by a more diverse group of microorganisms. All of the nitrifiers are obligate aerobes, which means that they require atmospheric O 2 so nitrification is especially sensitive to soil moisture content and does not occur in waterlogged soils. The rate of nitrification increases with soil temperature up to about 35C (95F); below 5C (40F) very little NO 3 -is formed. Soil pH is also important. Below a pH of 6.0, nitrification is inhibited by acidity, and the process virtually ceases at a pH of 4.5 to 5.0. Under alkaline conditions, production of NO 3 -is markedly enhanced. The optimum pH is normally between 7.0 and 8.0, but NO 3 -may be formed at a pH of 9.0 or even higher.
True nitrification slows down but is still possible until the 5.0 ph range

Whole study here
http://frec.ifca.com/1994/report10/
Pretty easy google search on that one

Sump Pimp #7

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
HD Blazingwolf is offline  
post #11 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-28-2013, 11:45 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
wkndracer's Avatar
 
PTrader: (68/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Citrus County,Florida
Posts: 6,186
Having the spare equipment here I've placed electronic pH controllers on low light NPT systems just to see what happens with pH during a 24hr period. Lighting alone can shift tested pH by a full degree on lightly buffered tanks (2dKH). Monitoring what the pH reading was in the morning before the photoperiod and again late in the afternoon I recorded a full point shift in value. The only difference was lights on or lights off (more or less CO2). Shifts in the GH, KH, TDS, mineral content, changes in osmotic pressure that's what causes our critters issues not pH changes per say.
The pH value is a product of carbonate buffers and CO2 content in the water for this conversation. Acidic or alkaline yes but testing pH as it relates to tank water and your question on CO2 injection it really isn't anything to worry about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elyssa View Post
Am I right in thinking the Ph would lower a bit and then raise back up and since it's more of a gradual up and down, the fish are not affected? It's more PH shock when it bounces from one point to another quickly?
Experiences here are as long as the temperature is matched I can routinely swap fish between injected tanks with 5.9/6.2pH and the 7.4/7.6pH low techs.
Temps the same, the TDS is very close and fish don't seem to care is why I support the position that CO2 induced swings don't matter.

When people say a fish requires a low pH I automatically read that as soft water.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If at first you don't succeed,,, keep kicking it
RubberSideDownOnTheLanding,
2-75g planted, 3-55g planted, 110g w/30g sump, 2018 update returning to sanity (Nutz)
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
wkndracer is offline  
post #12 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-28-2013, 11:57 AM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: In an aquarium nearby
Posts: 447
To complement wkndracer's explanation, the fish and other living creatures acclimation process is done so that they have time to adjust their osmoregulation to the water's osmotic pressure in your tank.

It's related to TDS which can be *very poorly* approximated from the water hardness (gH). Usually, fish raised in hard water will need a long time (3-4 hours) to adjust to soft water. Death comes almost instantaneous if you drop in fish accustomed to hard water in soft water. But this is unrelated to the pH.
danielt is offline  
post #13 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-28-2013, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
Elyssa's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 222
wkndracer,
Thanks, I like to keep track of the parameters and realize the KH/Carbon and PH relation. I'm new to the CO2 and understand that the CO2 is going to alter the PH. The woman whose fish and equipment I have, told me she only ran the CO2 for two hours because the PH went from 7.4 to 7.2 and that is where my concern came from.

So, my own water is like 7.6 or a bit more, I was just wondering if I was monitoring the PH every hour, if there was any point I should become concerned. I start at 7.6 before lights come on and 12 hours later if I'm at 6.6 (I'm using random number), I shouldn't have to worry?

I'm so new to all this and trying to wrap my brains around the details now. With the plants using the o2 at night, I have a fluval 304 running and was thinking at night, I should increase the flow for more oxygen and then turn it down in the am when the co2 comes on. It my mind this makes sense, is my logic faulty?

Thanks. Just don't want to stress the fish!
Elyssa is offline  
post #14 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-28-2013, 06:40 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elyssa View Post
wkndracer,
Thanks, I like to keep track of the parameters and realize the KH/Carbon and PH relation. I'm new to the CO2 and understand that the CO2 is going to alter the PH. The woman whose fish and equipment I have, told me she only ran the CO2 for two hours because the PH went from 7.4 to 7.2 and that is where my concern came from.

So, my own water is like 7.6 or a bit more, I was just wondering if I was monitoring the PH every hour, if there was any point I should become concerned. I start at 7.6 before lights come on and 12 hours later if I'm at 6.6 (I'm using random number), I shouldn't have to worry?

I'm so new to all this and trying to wrap my brains around the details now. With the plants using the o2 at night, I have a fluval 304 running and was thinking at night, I should increase the flow for more oxygen and then turn it down in the am when the co2 comes on. It my mind this makes sense, is my logic faulty?

Thanks. Just don't want to stress the fish!
just keep the flow high, have good surface aitation to promote proper gas exchange.

plain and simple. ph changes due to co2 injection are harmless to fish
a safe ph drop for most beginners is a 1.0 ph drop.
for instance from 7.6 to 6.6 like you said

but turn it off at night, this allows bacteria to become more efficient for a good portion of the day.

Sump Pimp #7

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
HD Blazingwolf is offline  
post #15 of 50 (permalink) Old 02-28-2013, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
Elyssa's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 222
HD BlazingWolf,
Thank you for clarifying and being straight to the point.

With the flow, this is another thing that I've seen so much contradiction on. I thought when you were injecting co2, that running air stones and having a lot of surface agitation was not a good thing and wasteful. If you weren't injecting co2 then it was a good thing because of the gaseous exchange.

I am planning on turning off at night, why would anybody want to run the co2 at night anyways? That just doesn't make sense, unless you didn't have any fish in the tank, perhaps?

Thanks again, big sigh of relief!
Elyssa is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome