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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
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Confused about Estimative Index

I'm trying to figure the doses I'll need for my 95g using EI, but I'm a bit confused...

I took the numbers there (other sites I checked give the same)
http://www.aquascapingworld.com/maga...on-Method.html

Why do the ratios change after 60g?
Under 60g, you dose KNO3 4 times more than others.
Then at 60g KNO3 becomes only 3 times more than others. Except for KH2PO4 which is 3/16tsp instead of 1/4tsp like the others.
Aquariums between 80g and 100g don't seem to exist.
And at 100g-125g, KH2PO4 is again the same as the others.

So in layman's terms... WTF?
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 09:12 PM
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I use Yet Another Nutrient Calculator for my tank.

I type in my tank size, pick my fert, how I'm dosing, and it tells me how much I should add. You can then adjust EI dosing based on how your plants react


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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 09:19 PM
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Don't worry about it. You are overdosing in any case then removing half the water so the nutrient doesn't build up to dangerous levels. This is meant as a simple way to be sure the plants get what they need. No testing required!

Once you are comfortable dosing you adjust the levels to the needs of your particular tank. For instance I like dosing a lot more phosphate than listed, find the plants are much greener and no more green spot algae but dose the listed amount of nitrate and am currently working on differing amounts of the micronutrient mix.


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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 09:39 PM
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The ratios change simply because the measurements are rounded to the nearest common measuring spoon. With doses for smaller tanks, this has to be rounded more heavily. Different people might have contributed the newer 100-125G dosages, and used a different method of rounding, or extrapolated from the previously existing dosages for smaller tanks, instead of from larger tanks.

All of which affects nothing. The exact ratio and dosage isn't critical.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
I'm trying to figure the doses I'll need for my 95g using EI, but I'm a bit confused...

I took the numbers there (other sites I checked give the same)
http://www.aquascapingworld.com/maga...on-Method.html

Why do the ratios change after 60g?
Under 60g, you dose KNO3 4 times more than others.
Then at 60g KNO3 becomes only 3 times more than others. Except for KH2PO4 which is 3/16tsp instead of 1/4tsp like the others.
Aquariums between 80g and 100g don't seem to exist.
And at 100g-125g, KH2PO4 is again the same as the others.

So in layman's terms... WTF?
Might be best if you mention a bit more about the goal you have with the tank itself, the lighting, CO2 system.

Ferts are rather easy, add them etc. Some do it 2-3x a week, some divide into daily, some dose less and then reduce water changes, some keep up on water changes etc.

But the main drivers of growth and differences in fert routines are light and CO2, they are also the main causes of issues. Ferts are a minor issue.
I just add a non limiting amount of them so I can focus on CO2/light and maximize the return from that.

The ppm's and specifics will vary as do the various folk's advice on it.
On a 95 Gal tank with high light, say T5's, 4x 54W with good cO2 and filtration/care:

3/4 teaspoon KNO3 2-3x a week
1/4 tsp of KH2PO4
Trace mix of CMS+B in (1 liter of water and 6 tsp of CMS+B): 30 mls 3-4x a week
2 tsp of GH after weekly water change

That's it.

You can do more water changes, say 2x a week if the tank is newer, dose right after. 50-70% is typically what I do.

For a lower light tank, I might only do one water change a month, and if the plant biomas sis low etc, then I might dose say 1/2 or less these amounts.

If I do not add CO2, then maybe 1/10th to 1/20th these amounts and then dose once a week.

I have tanks with all these routines.

No one method will meet all goals, so common sense, and tailoring it to a specific goal is better advice than rigid advice. To do that, you actually have to ask the person what their goal is and help them one on one.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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I have 320W of lighting.

I'll have pressurised CO2.

The filter is a Eheim 2217.

I'll have automated water changes every day. I have yet to do the maths for how much to change every day so that over a week it is equivalent to a 50% water change.

I will automate fertilizers too. I first need to figure how much to give weekly, then I'll figure out how to spread it over the week. Thanks for the link to the calculator, I'll use the numbers it gives me!

My only experience with freshwater is my low tech 25g, which I've had for about 15 years. It is not growing fast but that's on purpose. I've been doing an average of 3 water changes a year for the last 5 years! It's going really well, plants look good (but not great), and my fishes, shrimps and frogs are all in great shape.

So that's my first leap into high tech, and the first time I need to use fertilizers. The EI seems a good start for that, and with my setup and everything automated it should go smoothly.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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OK I'm a bit confused again, this time with the calculator.
I'm trying to figure how much of each nutrient I need to add every week.
So for KNO3, it gives me :

To reach your target of 7.5 ppm NO3 you will need to add 4.398 g KNO3 to your 95.0 US gal aquarium to yield
Element ppm/degree
K 4.73
N 1.69
NO3 7.50
Dose these levels 2-4 times a week for EI.


Is the 4.398g the total for the whole week, which should be divided into 2-4 doses spread over the week?
Or do I need to dose 4.398g 2-4 times a week, for a total somewhere between 9-18g per week?

I suppose it's the former, but just to be sure...
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
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Also, it gives me
KNO3 : 4.398g
KH2PO4 : 0.669g

But in the articles, the ratio between these is 4 part KNO3 for 1 part KH2PO4
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 07:20 PM Thread Starter
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I just realised the arcticles give volumes but the calculator gives mass. So these nutrients probably just dont have the same density...
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
I just realised the arcticles give volumes but the calculator gives mass. So these nutrients probably just dont have the same density...
Correct; in addition, the densities of the various chemicals can vary based on what form they are in (powder versus prills, etc).

Anthony


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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 09:32 PM
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Did you read my post? I told you what to do specific to your tank using this method. You have way over complicated this. I should know as I wrote EI.

The calculator to use is Wet's:
http://rota.la/

This is only needed if you want to know the break down or see what the modeling graph says over time etc in response to different water change routines and %.

As mentioned already, ratios are not important.
KNO3 and KH2PO4 powder from aquariumfertilizer.com is what the teaspoon weights were based on.

If there's +/- 10% error, this matters not.

It only becomes a critical issue when you are limiting nutrients, but if you are providing a decent buffer of non limiting ferts, none of this matters, all that matters is Liebig's law of the minimum.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
OK I'm a bit confused again, this time with the calculator.
I'm trying to figure how much of each nutrient I need to add every week.
So for KNO3, it gives me :

To reach your target of 7.5 ppm NO3 you will need to add 4.398 g KNO3 to your 95.0 US gal aquarium to yield
Element ppm/degree
K 4.73
N 1.69
NO3 7.50
Dose these levels 2-4 times a week for EI.


Is the 4.398g the total for the whole week, which should be divided into 2-4 doses spread over the week?
Or do I need to dose 4.398g 2-4 times a week, for a total somewhere between 9-18g per week?

I suppose it's the former, but just to be sure...



Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
I have 320W of lighting.

I'll have pressurised CO2.

The filter is a Eheim 2217.

I'll have automated water changes every day. I have yet to do the maths for how much to change every day so that over a week it is equivalent to a 50% water change.

I will automate fertilizers too. I first need to figure how much to give weekly, then I'll figure out how to spread it over the week. Thanks for the link to the calculator, I'll use the numbers it gives me!

My only experience with freshwater is my low tech 25g, which I've had for about 15 years. It is not growing fast but that's on purpose. I've been doing an average of 3 water changes a year for the last 5 years! It's going really well, plants look good (but not great), and my fishes, shrimps and frogs are all in great shape.

So that's my first leap into high tech, and the first time I need to use fertilizers. The EI seems a good start for that, and with my setup and everything automated it should go smoothly.
320 W is a lot of light, are they T5's or PC or?
Also, how far above the water are they?

For the automated WC: I'd set it up to do 10% once a day about 30 minutes after the lights come on. Dose thereafter for autodosing.

To autodose:

A good size vat, 1-5 gallons, then set the dosing pump to empty the volume over say 28 days/4 weeks.

So 1 gal = 3785 mls/28 days = 135 mls per day.

Add 4 weeks worth of EI ferts to the vat and fill with water.
So in the case of KNO3=. 3/4 tsp x say 3x a week x 4 weeks= teaspoons or 3 tablespoons.

You will need 2 vats, one for traces and one for macros, but basically just do not mix the trace(CMS+B stuff) with the KH2PO4.

I also add maybe 10mls of Excel per 100mls of solution, this keeps fungus etc down in the vats. Bulkreef sells decent dosing pumps for about 80$ each.

More details on the lighting will help. the rest is just CO2 and trimming the weeds. Auto water changers ona daily routine are VERY stable and rarely have any algae issues for the client's I've set up.

They mostly have to address/adjust light and CO2.
Ferts are frankly very easy.

Here's a good article on light/CO2:

http://www.tropica.com/en/tropica-ab...and-light.aspx

They made nutrients non limiting so they could test light and CO2 independent of other factors, EI does this and is the only water column dosing method that does for most any plant tank.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 11:54 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks! For some reason something was not clear to me in your previous post, but now I get it!

For my lighting... well, I just learned today that the Watts per galon rule doesn't apply to LED, and this is what I have, 2 Maxspect led-g2-400-160w. My 95g had a previous life as a reef (I just sold the last of my liverock this week), and that's the lights I had in the end.
So, earlier today someone on another forum told me that WPG didn't apply to LED and he told me about PAR, so I did some research which raised still more questions... I found this thread which explains PAR, and it says that PAR over 50 is considered high light.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=184368

But the other discussions I found talk of PAR of 300 to 1000 and more. So I still don't understand that part, and I haven't had time to look into this more.

And I also find this thread! A guy with the exact same lighting as me (except when he mentions optics I don't know what he's talking about) measures the PAR within his reef!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1965294

I had no idea the intensity changed so much at different heights!
But I still don't know what these numbers mean about how strong my light is.

My aquarium is 22" deep and the lights are 11" above water.

Thanks a lot for your help!
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 12:12 AM
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Here is another great thread on LED lighting and PAR:

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=160396
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-06-2013, 10:12 PM Thread Starter
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Can I mix GH Booster with my preparations of micro and macro?
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