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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 09-25-2012, 04:14 AM Thread Starter
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EI Question

Please forgive me if this question sounds stupid. When EI dosing why cant I just do the doses all at once for the week, instead of macros 1 day micros next. From what I've read, the nutrients stay in the water column and the 50% water change resets the nutrients to no more than 2x what is dosed, so from what I'm thinking it wouldn't matter when the nutrients are dosed?
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 09-25-2012, 04:18 AM
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It doesn't necessarily matter, but dosing the nutrients over the course of the week helps to avoid huge swings in nutrient ppm within the water column. Also, some people have said that iron (which is inside your micros) can bind with phosphates and make them unusable. I don't know how much of that is true. In all reality, once one has been in the tank for a couple minutes you should be able to dose the other.


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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 09-25-2012, 01:03 PM
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I remember Rex Griggs mentioned in one of his post that he doses his tanks with macro and micro the same day, one hour apart.

I would also like to find out about the reason hobbyist doses small amounts of alternating micros and macros. Anybody can help shed some light here?

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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 09-25-2012, 03:17 PM
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I thought that the reason why you spread them out over the week was to make sure that the plants didn't run out of nutrients?
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 09-25-2012, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chew View Post
Please forgive me if this question sounds stupid. When EI dosing why cant I just do the doses all at once for the week, instead of macros 1 day micros next. From what I've read, the nutrients stay in the water column and the 50% water change resets the nutrients to no more than 2x what is dosed, so from what I'm thinking it wouldn't matter when the nutrients are dosed?
It wouldn't matter for your plants as long as you won't run out of something before your weekly wc and nutrient dosing. Now, livestock will suffer.

Mommabear, how is your tank coming along? Any current pictures?


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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 09-25-2012, 04:45 PM
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One of the things to strive for in fish keeping is a stable tank. Whether it is temp, PH or whatever, the fish can adapt to small or slow changes much more easily that big swings. If you add the ferts all at once for the week, there is more chance of stress to any fish. Also the iron is more likely to be lost.

My theory is that I do really need to take a good look at the tank so that I can see any signs of trouble before they reach a crisis. While adding the ferts is a good time to do a head count and look thing over. Daily is far better than weekly.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 09-25-2012, 06:41 PM
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Mommabear, how is your tank coming along? Any current pictures?
there he is! the limnophilia and hydrocotyle have taken off. still remnants of bba on some of the hydrocotyle but i just keep hacking those leaves off the ludwiga is struggling and I am waiting for a plant package, expected today, to replace it with. can't seem to keep the bba off of it and i don't like it for the look i'm going for anyway. No new pictures from the last i had posted. i'll take some after i add the new plants.
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 09-25-2012, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mommabear1007 View Post
there he is! the limnophilia and hydrocotyle have taken off. still remnants of bba on some of the hydrocotyle but i just keep hacking those leaves off the ludwiga is struggling and I am waiting for a plant package, expected today, to replace it with. can't seem to keep the bba off of it and i don't like it for the look i'm going for anyway.
Then You lack enough co2. Make sure you have plenty to rule that limiting factor out. (knowing that you are stubborn with an 8hr cycle)

Sorry to hijack!


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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 09-26-2012, 11:30 AM
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Then You lack enough co2. Make sure you have plenty to rule that limiting factor out. (knowing that you are stubborn with an 8hr cycle)

Sorry to hijack!
I was thinking that was the next step. After WC/trim last night I don't think it was bba on the hydrocotyle, just some diatoms. It is definitely on some of the equipment that is directly under the light. I wonder if it just took hold of the ludwiga and I didn't get to it in time before I could save it. I snipped off the top, unaffected parts of the ludwiga and took them home to another tank and removed the rest of it. We'll see what it does. I might increase co2 a bit anyway and spot treat the equipment with excel. (=

And yes, sorry to hijack.
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 09-26-2012, 04:44 PM
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In most CO2 enriched tanks with moderate to high light, dosing 2-3x a week seems to be the min frequency for decent growth based mostly on consensus.
The reference standard was daily dosing.

Weekly dosing was often suggested by vendors and their products, but these tended to be for general advice based on both CO2/non C(O2 aquariums, which have vastly different rates of growth, well over 10-20X.

What you do not want is feast and famine. So dosing say 1 ppm of PO4 and then have is run out at zero late in the week.

It's better to have the PO4 at say 1 ppm and then maybe drop to say .5 ppm for a day or two, then dosing brings it back up to 1ppm or 1.2ppm etc.

Plant uptake enzymes adapt to the environmental concentrations.
So if the concentration range is say 0.1 to 0.2 ppm PO4, there's a specific set of enzymes the plant makes for low ppm's, these are called High Affinity uptake enzymes. These require more energy to operate. Say 0.2- 1.0 ppm, there is a medium affinity uptake system, these require less energy to operate and can take in more volume of the nutrient.

Then say a low affinity uptake system will operate at say 2- 5ppm of PO4 and above. This is the lower/lowest energy requirement for uptake and the plant can gobble up a good deal of the nutrient for growth without much issue.

Plants can adapt, but ideally you want them to be stable so they do not need to retool and change between these systems. They can do this, but it takes a little time, likely a week or two etc. Soil sources change slowly...........so most never see this, but in the water column and inert sediments, the effect is much more pronounced.

There is also no reason why one cannot dose non limiting ferts daily or reduce or increase them(but there's no real reason to dose more of a non limiting fert) if the plants look happy.

Up to you.

The water change thing can be used over a wider range also.
It's just a tool for managing and keeping things in that range.

This is why planted tanks can grow well still at various concentrations.

But it is easier as far management for many folks to hit the non limiting D range vs say C or B ranges:




D is a much larger and easier target to hit.

Which is why I suggested it to begin with years ago.

As you can see, you can start say in the middle of D........and then simply slowly and progressively reduce the dosing till you hit C. Then you can reduce water changes quite a bit etc. But still have the same growth as D.

This is generally what I suggest. There is little if any risk from over dosing.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 09-27-2012, 03:28 AM
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tom,
Thanks for the detail explanation. Just so I understand the EI better, every dose(per regular EI schedule) on macro/micros will get our tank within the "D" range on the curve? Thank you in advance.

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