What is EI's Kryptonite? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-28-2005, 02:34 AM Thread Starter
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What is EI's Kryptonite?

Well I use EI with great success!!! I read lots of other people having great success with EI. But what are the short comings of EI?

What type of tank would not lend itself to success with EI? Lets say I had a 29 gallon with one 65 watt bulb on top. Would this tank be successful with EI? Would I have to get my CO2 to 30ppms?

Where does EI cross the line of become exactly what it professes not to be....."difficult". I hope this turns into a cool discussion.

I am not trying to diss the method at all. I totally believe in it!!!, but where does it not apply? I would just like to hear what some of the EI folks say about it.

Thanks....I am looking forward to reading and learning.
jB
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-28-2005, 02:41 AM
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since the claim of EI is that excess dosing is just wasteful rather than detrimental, i dont see any short comings in whatever setup you have.

if you have low light and/or low co2, you will merely be shoving way too much no3 and po4 into the tank. the large water changes will keep the excess from becoming a problem.

i havent read the EI method for non co2 tanks yet though. what does it say about dosing? still excessive, or does it begin to cut back?

Cliff
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-28-2005, 02:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spar
if you have low light and/or low co2, you will merely be shoving way too much no3 and po4 into the tank. the large water changes will keep the excess from becoming a problem.

i havent read the EI method for non co2 tanks yet though. what does it say about dosing? still excessive, or does it begin to cut back?
These are the exact topics I would like to discuss Cliff!!!

jB
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-28-2005, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spar
the large water changes will keep the excess from becoming a problem.
+1
It seems to me that the only "kryptonite" to the EI method is insufficient/infrequent water changes.


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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-30-2005, 01:13 AM
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Iinitially it was never meant to be a method per se. Just a re set.

You can go 2-4 weeks without a change. But you need to work on getting to know the tank and the plants better.

That takes time.

When you see a lull of a trace of algae, you respond by pruning, trimming etc and do the water change and re set.

I've always suggested to start with an assumed max rate.
From there you can lower a nutrient one at a time step wise.
When you see a negative plant response, bump the dosing back up one notch. That's the minmum nutrient demand(MND).

You can figure out each nutrient this way, CO2 and light also.

What you do nopt know is the max amount before we see negative repsonses.
I know 120ppm of NO3 is bad, for shrimp and plants.
I have no clue nor would I think anyone would add more than that or more than 10mls of Flourish in a 4 gal tank daily, 5-10ppm of PO4, 100ppm K+, GH over 450ppm(25 degrees) etc.

Non CO2 tanks should work from the minimum prespective.
Leave the max experimenting to the CO2 folks.

Weekly doses work well for non CO2.
Every 2-3 days for the CO2.

This gets into a number of issues...........frequency as well as amount dosed.

But in each case..............you still can do a great deal of experimenting without using a test kit and these test will more accurate since there is no test claibration involved or related error.

Your "test" as were, ARE the plants.

I think wasting traces, having to do more water changes than some care to are the main issues and also...........some people like to play with test kits and feel like it's more scientific somehow in their approach.

They might not want to fess, but they do.

If you seek balance and reduced water changes, go non CO2.
If you seek more growth, and some water changes, go CO2.

You do not get both, although some like to think they somehow should be able to. They want an Amano tank with no work.

Amano work's his tail off to get the tanks in good shape.
He also does large water changes, adds MND, adds his ferts frequently.

I've done some truly beautiful non CO2 tanks. They are really neat and nicer than my CO2 tanks on any given day.

But I also estimate the dosing on those and seem to hit things well, I can simply not dose for a few weeks to pruge the tank of nutrient build up.

That's why it's good to have a little less than your nutrients needs coming from the fish.


Regards,
Tom Barr



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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-30-2005, 04:33 AM
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Thats some information right there Tom, by any chance would I still be able to dose the EI method even though I have partially some C02?
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-30-2005, 09:12 PM
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So you add only a little CO2?
Given it's a 20 gal, just use SeaChem Excel and then yes, it'll work fine.

If you use CO2, it must be stable, DIY is not.

Regards,
Tom Barr



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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-30-2005, 09:32 PM
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Thats all I can afford at the moment, so I will be able to start dosing EI method with just about 11ppm c02 and dose excel as well as my dry ferts?
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-01-2005, 05:28 AM
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Naw, do the Excel, I think you'll do better.

If you want to use DIY, do it correctly or not at all.
Fro a 20 gal, see the www.barrReport.com (it's a free section in the public archives section) for a DIY reactor for DIY CO2, works super and will allow you to add more and get more out the CO2 you now add, it cost all of 2-3$ to make it and then the cost of a powerhead or if you have one laying around etc, a Rio 180 or 90 would be ideal, they run about 8-12$ new.

Regards,
Tom Barr



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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-01-2005, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain
Your "test" as were, ARE the plants.
But for people like me, I want to avoid having any plants with "negative response."
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-02-2005, 01:55 AM
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With good light, CO2, nutrients.....they grow like weeds.

You can see the lull in growth of certain species, lack luster pearling, holes in bottom leaves you can easily can prune or are anyway the following week, the color is not as rich, leaves are smaller than normal etc.

Then you know it's a negative response.

The next step in the bioassay method is seeing how far you can go till you see algae. Each species of algae is a good indicator of a deficiency also.

No test kit method will make a tank on top of things 100%, nor would it be practical.

You will fail if you hold yourself to such standards.
Much of the skill is spotting things and addressing them before they get worse.

You get to know a plant well, you know you need to maintain a higher level of NO3 for Mic umbrosum than you do for a Crypt.

So often only one of two species acts squirrely. Not the whole tank and it does not damage the plant per se unless severe.

Regards,
Tom Barr

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