How do water conditioners work? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 12:37 AM Thread Starter
Wannabe Guru
 
pandamonium's Avatar
 
PTrader: (28/100%)
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,079
How do water conditioners work?

Hey everyone,

I live in San Francisco and was going about my water tests post-water change. What I found was that the ammonia in my water was at 0.25ppm out of the faucet. I spoke with local guru Justin about it and he said that post-9/11 the water was treated with chloramine alongside chlorine, chloramine being a compound of ammonia and chlorine together. I used Nutrafin Aquaplus in my water changes. On the label it says that it will detoxify heavy metals, chlorine, and chloramine. So I was wondering about the chloramine specifically. Do water conditions just break the bond between the amine and chloride groups, yielding ammonia (chlorine just gassing off)? If this is the case, then the marketing is technically correct in saying that chloramine is neutralized but this yields ammonia...
This seems to me the only way that my water, after conditioning would still have ammonia in it. From this, it makes me believe that post water change conditions (unless ammonia is neutralized completely) make fish unhappy. IME, my rams become quite pale after water changes, and they are sensitive fish I believe.
If I am wrong anywhere, please correct me

So recap:
1) How do water conditioners work?
2) Does Nutrafin Aquaplus not neutralize ammonia? And I would assume then, that there is a water conditioner that will remove/neutralize ammonia?


Thanks


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

RAOK Club #72
pandamonium is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 12:45 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
lipadj46's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NY
Posts: 939
The ones that treat chloramine will neutralize the ammonia (as ammonium) and will keep the Cl reduced as Cl- (not Cl2 gas). I would suggest you use seachem safe or prime

Last edited by lipadj46; 07-31-2012 at 12:57 AM. Reason: poop
lipadj46 is offline  
post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 01:08 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PlantedRich's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 12,048
Sounds like the local guru needs more study if he thinks chloramine and 9-11 are connected! Chloramine is used due to a number of things but 9-11 is NOT one of them. For companies large enough to go for the expense of switching from chlorine treatment, chloramine has a number of advantages.
It is my understanding that different water treatments treat the ammonia in different ways. I believe you will find the ammonia is changed to a form which does not harm fish but is still measured by some test kits. It is still taken care of by the bio-filtering.

The big thing to know about chloramine is that it is far longer lasting so they can use far less of it at the treatment plant and still have a good amount left when it arrives at your faucet. The guy across the road gets much closer to the same amount as the guy ten miles down the road. One can let chlorine treated just set and the chlorine will blow away. Not chloramine. It may last a week. You get fewer cancer causing agents with using chloramine. No doubt your state is very involved with that.
PlantedRich is offline  
 
post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 05:12 AM Thread Starter
Wannabe Guru
 
pandamonium's Avatar
 
PTrader: (28/100%)
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,079
Ah I see, yeah my state would be. So that is why my test picks it up but its actually neutralized or will be in a form that can be dealt with by bio filtration. That's good. So the ammonia that is measured is not causing my rams to change color? I wouldn't want to stress them if my conditioner doesn't.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

RAOK Club #72
pandamonium is offline  
post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 05:35 AM
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 1,049
Nutrafin Aquaplus does NOT say that it does anything to ammonia. Do not assume it does.





Seachem Prime, on the other hand, does say it deals with ammonia



Standard 10 Gallon (20 x12x12).
Low tech, Sand substrate.
Eheim 2211, and Aqueon Quietflow 10.
Finnex Stingray LED, 20" above substrate
2 Anubias Nana Petite, Christmas moss.
4 Halequin Rasborahs, 5 RCS.
livingword26 is offline  
post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 06:09 AM Thread Starter
Wannabe Guru
 
pandamonium's Avatar
 
PTrader: (28/100%)
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,079
Quote:
Originally Posted by livingword26 View Post
Nutrafin Aquaplus does NOT say that it does anything to ammonia. Do not assume it does.

Seachem Prime, on the other hand, does say it deals with ammonia
My assumption was that the ammonia remained in the water and chlorine left if the conditioner functions by breaking the chloramine, hence my test results. I didn't assume that Nutrafin AquaPlus dealt with ammonia in the OP.
I did not know that Seachem Prime deals with ammonia. I will look into it if its an either cheaper or more effective conditioner


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

RAOK Club #72
pandamonium is offline  
post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 11:13 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
happi's Avatar
 
PTrader: (21/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 3,139
Send a message via Yahoo to happi
seachem prime is very good and it will treat more water with less dose compare to other brands i have ever tried. it will last you for long time.

DIY Trace/Micro/Macro Recipe
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


DIY Trace/Micro/Calculation Etc
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
happi is offline  
post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 11:44 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Craigthor's Avatar
 
PTrader: (188/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hiawatha, IA
Posts: 9,774
Prime is 5ml per 50g - I use it on my 220g as 25mL treats the entire tank.

Fluval Spec III Shelf!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdwill View Post
"C'mon, they're just plants, man, no big deal -- try some"
Craigthor is offline  
post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 07:46 PM Thread Starter
Wannabe Guru
 
pandamonium's Avatar
 
PTrader: (28/100%)
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,079
So I buy the Aquaplus at $6.99 for 250mL. It takes 10mL to treat 10gallons for chloramine and chlorine removal. 250 gallons for $7. So it costs about 3 cents to treat a gallon of water.
Seachem is about the same price I think for 250mL. And it takes 5mL per 50 gallon for everything. So it treats 2500gallons for the same price.
Guess I will be getting Seachem from now on Luckily my aquaplus is running out anyhow. Thats great!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

RAOK Club #72
pandamonium is offline  
post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-31-2012, 10:06 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PlantedRich's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 12,048
In searching around for the "best" value, I find there are many that do the same job and there can be major differences in price. But then when I look at price per water change, it comes in so close many times that I find picking the correct place to buy is far more important than which water conditioner I buy. I think you will find dealing with the ammonia will be part of dealing with chloramine. I never work the problem of ammonia as that is for my filter to take care of rather than a function of my water treatment. I now use a house brand because their bottle fits my storage rack better.

At three cents a gallon-- I would go shopping!
PlantedRich is offline  
post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 01:07 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Contra Costa CA
Posts: 11,721
A couple of months ago I priced dechlor on line. I only looked at products that would deal with chloramine, including the ammonia. Price per gallon of treated water, based on internet pricing, but not including shipping:

Prime, Chloramine Buster are the best price. They are used at a much lower dose than most other dechlorinators.

Amquel, Amquel Plus and some others are about 10 times the cost. They have other ingredients, or do more than just break apart the chloramine and lock up chlorine and ammonia.

The worst example is some of the tiny packages sold to someone who has only one Betta in a jar. These are about 200 times as expensive as Prime or Chloramine Buster.

There are dry crystal forms of dechlor, but to get a good price on a dry one that deals with chloramine you need to buy enough to run a fish hatchery.

Figure out which product you want, then get the test kit made by the same company, and see (perhaps on line, or inside the packaging literature) what it will show you about the ammonia:
Some tests can show you the difference between safe and unsafe ammonia. But they need to be compatible with the dechlor.

My tap water will show 1 ppm ammonia from the dechlor.
I use all sorts of dechlor, whichever is cheapest, even some swimming pool products, and have tested to see how mush to use. 2 drops of one swimming pool product will deal with the chloramine in a 45 gallon tank.

Take Justin with a grain of salt. Some of his ideas are... well, not really wrong, but just not exactly on target. Really nice guy, and an incredible shop!
Diana is offline  
post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 01:53 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PlantedRich's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 12,048
Quote:
Take Justin with a grain of salt. Some of his ideas are... well, not really wrong, but just not exactly on target.


With that view, Diana deserves to be "politically correct candidate" of the year. Me, not so much! I try to temper my views but it often slips out.
PlantedRich is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome