pmdd for flourish with NO copper? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
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Exclamation pmdd for flourish with NO copper?

i am very partial to shrimp, they're cool. i even like snails and think they are effective keeping algae down, but my experience with CSM was catastrophic; killing my shrimp and snails, very obvious.

my question: is there a bulk source of trace mixture that does not contain copper? i have had good luck with flourish but it is getting expensive!

also, for those of you living if san francisco, i am sure you are aware how soft our water is, and was wondering:

if seachems Equalibrium was sufficient for nutrients (other than N,P,K) specifically iron?

it will raise the GH, no doubt, but i do a lot of water changes.

thx darren

Last edited by darren_in_the_marsh; 04-14-2005 at 07:11 PM. Reason: typo
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 07:35 PM
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Just curious. What size tank do you have and how much CSM were you dosing when they got poisoned?
I was worried about copper poisoning and have limited my CSM dosing to 10ml 3x a week in 55 gallons. I also mixed up an iron chelate batch in case I need extra iron. I haven't been dosing much of it at all. Maybe 1-2ml a week at most.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 11:25 PM Thread Starter
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this happened many months ago. i was dosing pretty hard, but i dont remember how much. i remember though, twice, i purchased 3-4 amano shrimp, and in both circumstances, they were dead by morning. i changed back to flourish, not because of the shrimp problem (it took months before i realized how much copper was in the chelated stuff), but the plants were doing bad altoghether, and i had had success with flourish products. the new shrimp batch have done quite well, and the snails are back, so i am guessing it was the plantex.

i have not been a part of the online plant community in years, but was once quite the regular. it is very suprising to read about tom barr's EI. i just read the article last night and was shocked to find out, that was one of the only formulas that worked for me! i have tried EVERY dosing and lighting arrangement, fought EVERY species of algae (remind you, all in the same tank i set up in may of 1998!) and the best success i had, was when i would do huge water changes once a week. i know i would get lazy with my ferts, and either forget, or put too much in, so i never knew 'where' my tank was at. i agree with him that the tests are useless; look at your plants for clues, they are just weeds!

here in SF,CA the water is really soft, virtually nothing in it. it has been really difficult keeping a planted tank, at least for me, and i have spent $$$$$ on all kinds of different ferts and especially test kits (ugg, i should have stock in lamotte). i think letting nitrates get to zero is a real open-door for algae
and i still think the magic nutrient ratio is key, but i only found that sweet spot a few times. the light issue also seemed to help quite a bit, but i ran my tank for years with 80w of FL, no co2, and had great success, albeit not for long stretches. but then again, i think keeping aquariums is about problem solving, i have never tried landscaping, never had enough plants too, and there is a whole forum on it!!

chucks calculator is really great, and i laughed out loud with the new windows based gui, super cool! i am going to try tom's new scheme, probably should buy his subscription, and see what happens.

70% water changes are hysterical, all your plants bunch up; must freak out the fish!

cheers, darren


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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-15-2005, 02:16 PM
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I know of a lot of people that dose Plantex CSM using the EI and keep shrimp without any problems whatsoever (I'm one of them). You may have high copper in your water to start with and that could contribute to the problem.

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-15-2005, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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2003 water quality survey revealed copper measurements at:

1.3 ppm copper - hmm...this seems high?

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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-15-2005, 08:40 PM
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1.3ppm!


That's about the top end of acceptable standards for human consumption, but incredibly toxic to aquatic life. (Human ≈ 1.3ppm, Fish ≈ 0.02ppm)

You need to remove that copper by chelation with a chelating agent (like EDTA), or even overdosing with a water conditioner that removes metals, though the latter is hard to judge just how much to use.


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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-15-2005, 08:59 PM
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Gee, maybe thats what happened to all of my shrimp. I recently had a massive die off of them after switching to csm+b, and the water quality down where I live is horrible. My parish fails quality/safety tests year after year.

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How comes shoppings so stupid, looks at all this stuff I haves, what do I do's with it.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-15-2005, 11:53 PM
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I inquired about having some Plantex CSM made without the copper. Trouble was I could not see selling ~960 lbs in a short enough time to make it worthwhile.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-16-2005, 01:05 AM
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Is the copper content in CSM really something we should be worrying about? How much copper does CSM contained compared to Flourish? I'll admit I have been lowering the amount of CSM I have been using because I am also afraid of killing my shrimp. Would 10ml every other day in a 75 gallon tank be too much?
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-17-2005, 12:43 AM Thread Starter
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here is the link to the 2003 report, hopefully 2004 will be out soon.
i must admit, the copper level reads : 1300ppb (parts per billion), but doesnt that equal 1.3 pp(m)?? i also called my lfs, and they dont even consult this report, but it seems pretty infomative.

i also have one more confession: i recently set up a 20g plastic garbage can i fill once a week for water changes. i use it to better match temp (it sits next to my water heater) and let the chloramine/chlorine remover work for a bit. but when i turn my faucets on, they always burb orange water for several second (rust, i presume, and perhaps a sign of pipes not made of copper) and i cant remember if i let that bit of water go into the holding tank, probably should let water run for sec. before filling.

cheers, darren


http://sfwater.org/detail.cfm/MSC_ID.../holdSession/1
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-17-2005, 05:40 AM Thread Starter
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ugg, i read the report wrong: the 1300ppb is an 'action level', which probably means someone rings a bunch of safety bells and the terrorist warning system elevates to red!

but still, the average was 120ppm (.012 ppm). with a high of .035

darren

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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-17-2005, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darren_in_the_marsh
but still, the average was 120ppm (.012 ppm). with a high of .035
That makes more sense and fits perfectly with your experience of CSM.

A level of 0.012-0.035 is a little higher than you would ideally like, but not too much of a problem after a water conditioner deals with that level.

However, when you dose the CSM, you are adding an amount of Copper into the tank which could push the level back towards the realms of toxicity.

Your water pipes are a bit of a worry though. I would deffinately run out any sedimented "gunk" to ensure it does not interfere with your water change water, but even then, if this is happening inside the pipes, there will be an amount of rust affecting the water as it passes through, even if it looks relatively clear.


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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-19-2005, 10:48 PM
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I have had my 10 gallon shrimp tank for a few months now. I had occasional shrimp death/missing, but never linked it to CSM dosing, because I did not experience mass deaths. Well, the past weekend, I did a water change and add CSM as usual(which is not precise, I just pour a little bit from the bottle directly). The next day, one pregnant cherry and one bumble bee died. Fortunately, my expensive crystal reds are not affected so far. In the future, I will be more careful with CSM dosing, will use a pippet to add only a few drops.

Incidentally, I am using RO doing water changes lately in the shrimp tank to experiment with softwater, TDS 100-140. It might be true that Cu is more toxic in softwater. Might be the cause of my shrimp death.


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