Dosing CSM+B - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-02-2005, 07:44 PM Thread Starter
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Dosing CSM+B

It just seems that I have some unseen problem dosing CSM+B. I continually get GW.

I started out adding CSM+B to an established planted tank and immediately (the next day) got a very thick haze. Having experience with water quality in planted tanks I knew it was the start of a GW attack. Doing a very large water change and witholding addition of ferts. and also a few dark days the haze went away. Waiting approx. one week with out adding CSM I did not have the haze or any signs of GW, so I added just a very small amout of CSM(.7mils.) and once again Haze.

I ignored the haze and continued to add CSM+B; KNO3; PO4, K2SO4 hoping to get to a level that the plants would out compete the algae but the algae continues to win

With all the problems I have I am considering on going back to using the Kent products which did not give me any problems. But before I go out and buy a very expensive bottle of Freshwater Essential (close to $40.00) I want to try CSM+B one more time.

Please give guidence on dosing. My mix for my stuff is the following:

CSM+B-----1T./250MILS H2O
KNO3-------1T./250MILS H20
K2SO4------1T./250MILS H20
PO4--------1t./250MILS H20

With the above concentrations I would attempt to achieve the following:
pH---6.8
GH 6
KH 6

FE .1-.2PPM using CSM+B
KNO3--5-10 PPM
K---I would use twice the amount of K2SO4 as KNO3
PO4--10:1 KNO3/PO4

I have a 40 gal with 2.5wpg lights and a cannister filter with only sponge and ceramic filter media. I also use RO water.


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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-02-2005, 08:20 PM
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Still not conquered the GW then?

I'll let others try and advise, but something you could try is an experiment with the CSM.

Steralise a container, then add some RO water with CSM and see if green water appears under lights. Easiest way to do this would be a jam jar, sterilised with something like milton, then float it in your tank with cling film over the top.
This will at least prove if the CSM is "causing" the GW directly (IMO, highly unlikely unless it's contaminated, as others use it fine). I have done just this set up, with a jar of water containing all the plant nutrients (N P K + micros)..... the result, after many days of sitting in daylight?..... crystal clear water, because there is no ammonia/urea present.


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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-02-2005, 09:21 PM
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I have been getting the haze too.

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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-02-2005, 09:32 PM
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Perhaps it is the high levels of FE. I believe there is a considerably higher amount of FE in CSM+B then say flourish. I am going to start using CSM+B when my flourish runs out. Lets start a post.
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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-02-2005, 10:52 PM Thread Starter
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Jason,

From what I have read, CSM+B has less Fe than say Flourish. Infact if you go to the Greg Watson website I believe he states that you should dose more CSM than you would normally dose Flourish.

In addition to my problem I have measured the amount of Fe and I have not found any overdose.

Stu,

I would do the experiement if I absolutely believed it is only CSM+B that is causing the GW. But I am just wondering if I am dosing correctly, that is why I posted the mixtures of ferts and other parameters of my tank.

Please review to see if there is any parameter that is not in control. I do believe there is another something that is causing Green Water when I add the CSM+B. The problem is that I do not know what it can possibly be. So if there is some help I will try anything that I believe would be a possible solution.

I have not had any trace of ammonia levels for years. And I do mean at least 2.5 yrs. So I have not checked it for some time but will get a new fresh kit and test tonight and post results.

Also I will be doing another water change. Might just change water until I do have clear water and let it set with out ferts for a week and see if I get GW during the week. Maybe clean the substrate really good with my gravel cleaner. And next week clean the filter out really good using a portion of tank water in order to keep the bacterial filtration active.


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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-02-2005, 11:09 PM
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I was going by this chart. Perhaps I am reading it wrong.
http://www.gpodio.com/fert_table.asp
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-02-2005, 11:32 PM Thread Starter
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Here is something from the GregWatson site:


For those that are used to dosing commercial liquids, the traditional PMDD Micro-Nutrient Solution with Plantex CSM+B is not as concentrated as commercial alternatives such as Flourish. A good approximate equivalent is 1.25 to 1 - or 1.25 ml of your PMDD Micro-Nutrient Solution to 1 ml of Flourish.

If you are used to dosing 1 tablespoon of Flourish (15 ml), try dosing approximately 1.25 tablespoons of your Plantex CSM Solution.


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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-02-2005, 11:35 PM
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But greg recommends 1 tablespoon csm per 500ml H2O. 1 tablespoon csm per 250 ml H2O is stronger than flourish.
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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 12:02 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urkevitz
But greg recommends 1 tablespoon csm per 500ml H2O. 1 tablespoon csm per 250 ml H2O is stronger than flourish.
Yes the mixture is more concentrated but when you dose would you dose by volume or by levels of Fe?

If you dopse by volume would you have more nutrients added than if you dose to a Fe target level? I suspect that if you add say 5 mils of the 500mil mix your Fe level would be more than if you add 5 mils of 250 mil mix. So I would think that you will want to dose to a Fe target level instead of dosing by volume no matter what concentration you have as long as the concentration is balanced to disolve the CSM and not have much undesolved stuff left at the bottom of the bottle.


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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 01:46 AM
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How can you truly tell what levels of Fe is in a tank since iron test kits aren't supposed to be accurate?

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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 04:32 AM
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I personally doubt CSM+B is the problem. Perhaps mixing up a new batch, in a new container is in order. In my experience, GW is caused by any amount of ammonium. Mostly from stirring up gravel, drastic cleanings, etc.

Perhaps the container is contaminated?

I've dosed it in numerous concentrations, daily, every other day and no problems.

I could be wrong tho, I could send a little of my CSM+B and you could try it out.
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 04:54 AM
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Although this is a little off the thread topic, I once found a GW cure that worked very well, after I was truly sick of breaking out the D1 Vortex every few weeks only to have that dreaded GW reoccur.

It involved using a Nitrazorb sponge in the can filter, a near 70% water change (if memory serves me correctly), charcoal in the filter, running a diatom filter before that major water change, and a two or three day blackout. I lost a clown loach and it is hard on the fish, but the GW went away and never came back after that drastic cure. I found it on Aqua Botanic's forum " All Wet Thumb". One of the common thoughts I read at the time was a tank's macros were "out of balance" to cause GW, especially Nitrates. Who knows?





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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 07:05 AM Thread Starter
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Betowess,
That is what I am doing right now. But I am making a complete change of water until my water is clear. I needed to empty the tank with just enough water left to keep the fish wet. LOL Made 4 complete water changes before the water was as clear as possible. The fish are now very stressed and I hope that they will over come the stress.


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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 09:12 PM
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Are you using some charcoal and a nitrazorb sponge in your can, and diatoming the water as well? The blackout has to be 100% too. Because that GW will come right back unless you kill all of it. Goodluck. bob





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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-06-2005, 02:09 PM
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CSM does not cause green water, on the other hand, mixing 1Tbsp per 250ml H20 is a stout mix, that is how I mix it, but if it is causing you hazing of water, that means you are dosing to much based on the amount of plant mass, so cut back dosing amount until plant mass is more suitable.

I have seen photo's here on the forum's where people are dosing the EI with 4 or 5 small plant's in their tank, if plant mass is very limited, then dosing should be also, as mass fill's so dosing should increase...

Craig

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