EI vs PPS - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-09-2011, 11:14 PM Thread Starter
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Exclamation EI vs PPS

Reading and reading I decided to go for dry ferts and give one of this methods a shot. EI requires 50% WC, therefore I'm less inclined to that, but I want to have opinions from people that has done both.
Thanks.


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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-09-2011, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pejerrey View Post
Reading and reading I decided to go for dry ferts and give one of this methods a shot. EI requires 50% WC, therefore I'm less inclined to that, but I want to have opinions from people that has done both.
Thanks.
I have done EI for a long time and love it. One one of my tanks I switched to a PPS type dosing but I still do a 50-80% WC a week.

Either way, doing a weekly WC of 10-20-30 or even 80% is just good husbandry. I would never recommend not doing one. Some folks may say different. This is just one guys opinion.

In any case, both methods work. It's just up to you to decide on which is better for you. Even with PPS, I personally wouldn't do a WC less then 30% a week.

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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-09-2011, 11:56 PM
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I haven't done EI, but I have dosed PPS Pro for years. From what I understand EI is aimed at higher light pressurized co2 injected tanks, whereas PPS Pro is aimed more at lower light DIY co2 or Excel dosed tanks. In my low and medium light tanks, some with excel or DIY co2 and others without either, it has worked great. I vary the formula a little bit based on my plants needs and mix weaker batches for smaller tanks to make dosing easier. I have never really had any crazy algae issues using PPS Pro. I usually change 30-50% once a week, but I have gone as long as a month without a water change with no ill effects besides a little GDA.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-10-2011, 02:15 AM Thread Starter
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I guess I was a candidate for PPS before the t5 HO lights and the co2 pressurized system... I think my par number at the substrate level is 150ish?? High int. light right?

I found some extensive reading for EI at Barr's website, but I didn't find much about PPS... Any links?

Thanks.


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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-10-2011, 03:17 AM
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PPS: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...ysis-feedback/

I'm relatively new to the hobby and I certainly can't compare hands-on EI and PPS, but I have a comment about water changes: if you switch to a hose system, you won't feel the difference between the 25% WC that you already do and the 50% WC that EI recommends.
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-10-2011, 04:51 AM
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The EI dosing tables are just rough quantities, a starting point. If you start with the table amounts, then slowly decrease the amounts you soon find out at what dosage you can see that the plants don't do as well. You can then zero in on the "perfect" amounts to dose, but in a week the plants will have grown enough that that "perfect" amount might no longer be enough. So, we dose more than the plants need. If we don't overdo that we can do without the big weekly water changes and change less water or change less often. It isn't nearly as complicated or hard to do as it sounds, and you never have to do testing, and never have to worry about possible shortages.

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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
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I ordered from green leaf, the macro/micro pack & "Epsom salts"

I will start with EI, how long to see "changes" in my plants? or should I just target certain PPMs?

any suggestions for a first timer with EI?

Thanks!


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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-16-2011, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
The EI dosing tables are just rough quantities, a starting point. If you start with the table amounts, then slowly decrease the amounts you soon find out at what dosage you can see that the plants don't do as well. You can then zero in on the "perfect" amounts to dose, but in a week the plants will have grown enough that that "perfect" amount might no longer be enough. So, we dose more than the plants need. If we don't overdo that we can do without the big weekly water changes and change less water or change less often. It isn't nearly as complicated or hard to do as it sounds, and you never have to do testing, and never have to worry about possible shortages.
This is why I like EI dosing. You have a general guide of what you need and just play around with things and see your results. I actually haven't had that great of results with just the EI standard dosing, but it has helped find what I need. Once I started looking at EI doesing as "guide" or "starting place", I really enjoyed it more. It is really nice if you are auto dosing as well since with most methods, your mixture will be a few weeks. That's when I usually can see changes for good or bad so I can mix once and just see where that ends up. I now am starting to keep spreadsheets as I go on my newer tanks.

-Matt

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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-16-2011, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pejerrey View Post
I ordered from green leaf, the macro/micro pack & "Epsom salts"

I will start with EI, how long to see "changes" in my plants? or should I just target certain PPMs?

any suggestions for a first timer with EI?

Thanks!
You can simply do more water changes to reduce any error.
This is common sense for anyone that keeps fish and cares about them.

Likewise, once you gain more skills, you can slowly reduce the ppm's, the amount of dry ferts/liquid, they still add the same things.........

If you slowly and progressively reduce the dosing over say 2 week increments, then you can see and note any changes to the tank.

Done stepwise, this allows you to see and know what the deficiency starts to look and appear like before strong limitation occurs. If you start real low with dosing, then the potential to stunt a species and have in not recover is much higher. Since we KNOW that higher levels are NOT detrimental to all aquatic plants(I've not found any yet, on over 400 species and types now), this is a safer place to start.

ADA/Amano also suggest as do ADG and all ADA vendors.....to do large weekly water changes and perhaps as many as 3-4x a week in the first 1-2 months of a new set up. I also agree strongly with this.

However, with good management, ANYONE and any tank can certainly be dosed with less. Also, we can grow aquatic plants without CO2 also. But few seem to take this philosophy of less is better all the way, they take it liek a buffet, taking only what sounds good.

Still, you can dose less EI, or more PPS, they add the same things after all.
Liquid or dry.

Low or high light, DIY CO2 of gas tanks, etc.

With something like ADA aqua soil which has loads of nutrients in it......then you can have more wiggle room with dosing and not fear running out of nutrients, and once in place, it's going to last for years except for N.
So that's a no brainer, DIY soil and MTS can be done also with similar results.

Then you can worry less about dosing.

If you use LESS light, then you can also dose less with less issues and less CO2 demand also, so this helps most cases for management. Some folks like higher light and want to garden more, but most really do not, particularly when starting out.

So now you have a better more wiggle room method regardless of the dosing routine. Less light, better CO2, and less nutrient demand from the water column.

I do once a MONTH water change(50%) on the tank below using moderate light and CO2 gas, and I feed the fish very well:



My 120 gal dutch display gets 70% weekly water changes and got every 3rd day water changes for the 1st 1-2 months.

Different goals, different methods and labor input. This is why each group thinks their method works and they are correct. What we see much less frequently are folks who are able to do several methods

This way I can have a nice looking tank with less work, as well as a nice garden where I prune and trim more. Or a tank which requires no water changes or much input of any kind, but is still very easy to care for and looks good, here's a non CO2 tank of mine.



So once you figure out how much work you wanna do and what the scape design goal is.....then you select the light/CO2....or not....then lastly , the fert routine.

I'm not saying ferts are not important.........just that they are pretty forgiving and wide ranging. There is little risk if you over do them.
Also, making the water change easy or automating it is a good thing.

It need not be a hard chore or involve any buckets.
I can change 60-70% on every tank I have, about 480 Gal worth of my 5 tanks, in about 1.5 hours and refill them using this:



Filter cleaning, shrimp culling, trimming, any other maintenance including dosing is all done while the water drains or fills. Pretty easy given the level of scaping and and sales of the trimmings I do. I do put in some work and I'm pretty good at it since I've done it for decades, but others can do it also.

I'm FAR from special. Mostly do what others before me already have done.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-16-2011, 05:27 AM
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Heres my opinion.

EI is Awesome.

PPS Sucks.

Ok seriously, I've done both and I've had less algae with EI.
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-16-2011, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pejerrey View Post
Reading and reading I decided to go for dry ferts and give one of this methods a shot. EI requires 50% WC, therefore I'm less inclined to that, but I want to have opinions from people that has done both.
Thanks.
EI NEVER ***required*** 50% water change.
50% is merely used as starting point and made the math easier.
You can modify this and Wet'd dosign calculator and modeling graph can tell you where those ppm's will go over time:

http://ei.petalphile.com/

My advice is play around with this and punch in some different no#'s and see what happens. Use NO3 and dose say 2 ppm per day, then try 10ppm say per week, then 30 ppm per week etc....try doing smaller more frequent water changes, vs say 1 large one a week, or once a month.

This assumption that EI requires a 50% weekly water change is often used to suggest PPS is "better" and is a sales marketing gimmick. EI or any method can be reduced and avoid water changes altogether. There are numerous examples. I just used it as a suggestion for folks, it is not written in stone on Mt Sinai.

Why do any water changes ever?
To reduce error mostly and risk........

This is the same for PPS, EI, ADA etc.........

Each can be modified and each can require water changes for things totally unrelated to dosing or ppm of NO3.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-16-2011, 08:01 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice!
I've had this tank for 7yrs and it's only now with the t5HO lights that is looking poorer. As mentioned before, I had it lush with no CO2 and very little ferts.

Today, I have this lights and a pressurized co2 system and a challenge. I love learning new stuff and this is fun. I appreciate the answers a lot!

Excuse my ignorance, what is ADA?


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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-16-2011, 12:34 PM
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Excuse my ignorance, what is ADA?
ADA = Aqua Design Amano aka Takashi Amano.
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-16-2011, 09:04 PM
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Heres my opinion.

EI is Awesome.

PPS Sucks.

Ok seriously, I've done both and I've had less algae with EI.
I do not think this type of observation is correct.
There are cases where BOTH work well, and cases where BOTH have not worked well for users.

However, do we based the assessment in a fair manner on the 1001 ways we can possibly mess a method up? Or do you observe the tanks WHERE THEY ARE working well? Why might one method work in a given situation, and another leaner method might not?

How does light and CO2 affect the end results of any/every dosing method?
What indirect effects and what independence can we provide to LEARN more?

ADA full tank set ups also have disasters, but clearly, they work quite well when run correctly.

So it's not so much the method as it is the user and their assumptions.
This applies equally to every dosing method.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-16-2011, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by pejerrey View Post
Thanks for the advice!
I've had this tank for 7yrs and it's only now with the t5HO lights that is looking poorer. As mentioned before, I had it lush with no CO2 and very little ferts.

Today, I have this lights and a pressurized co2 system and a challenge. I love learning new stuff and this is fun. I appreciate the answers a lot!

Excuse my ignorance, what is ADA?
Well, you now have 10-15X faster growth with more light and more CO2.

A good article to read to see where you where, and where you are now is Tropica's CO2/light article, one of the best articles on the net.

http://www.tropica.com/advising/tech...and-light.aspx

SFBAAPS is the local club, join up and they/we can help you much easier, it's free and they swap plants and have meetings often, about 50-100 people each event.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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