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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-04-2011, 09:48 PM Thread Starter
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All-round ferts

I'm sure this has been discussed thounsands of times here but...

Would Flourish or Flourish Excel be considered a good all in one "plant fert for Dumbies"?

I only have shrimp tanks with mostly Guppy Grass (naja) but....
there is no way I can remain on this forum without dressing up my tanks a bit.

Do have some Java fern alive for a couple years and a few otheres besides mosses.

Low light (so far) no CO2, cool water shrimp tanks
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-04-2011, 09:54 PM
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Flourish does not contain any macros. It is a micro nutrient mix. It is dilute as well. Flourish excel is a carbon supplement, it has no other values.

There is only ONE "all-in-one" fertilizer made/sold in the US. RootMedic oneSTEP. It happens to be buy 1 get 1 free today. https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sp...et-1-free.html


Your tank isn't high light/high co2, so you wouldn't need much. But I'm guessing the naja grass eats through the nutrients you've got pretty quick.

You could continue using flourish and buy the separate nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus, or could look into a dry dosing(cheapest long term) system like EI, EI light, or PPS pro.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-04-2011, 10:09 PM
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Osmocote+


/thread


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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-04-2011, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optix View Post
Osmocote+


/thread
Guppy grass is a floating plant. Is osmocote now magic?

Not that guppy grass is particularly demanding, but for reals? You want a substrate fert to use for a floating plant?

While I think it is great that people have DIY'd a fert copying the RootMedic system, there is much more to fertilizing than shoving something in the substrate.

/not end thread, discussion welcome.
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-04-2011, 10:27 PM
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wait wait...OC+ copied RM? [email protected]

osmocote+ in tea bag/coffee filter...then removed
or you can easily remove the coating on the pellets

either way...complete macro/micro ferts...sold in the US all year

/thread


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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-04-2011, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optix View Post
wait wait...OC+ copied RM? [email protected]

osmocote+ in tea bag/coffee filter...then removed
or you can easily remove the coating on the pellets

either way...complete macro/micro ferts

/thread
Now you've done something that could easily kill of an entire fish population. Osmocote in a tea bag in the water column will leach ammonia at an astonishing rate. So fast that it will put ammonia levels through the roof. BAD idea. Bad.

People using Osmocote in their thanks didn't think of it on their own.... No one had done it prior to the production of RootMedic. RootMedic contracts through Scotts to make a product that is actually designed for aquariums.

It seems as though you need to research this more. Recommending people put osmocote in the water column is down right irresponsible.If you remove the membrane you'[ll be left with powdered ferts. HIGH in ammonia.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-04-2011, 10:34 PM
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I have a three planted tanks that do not have pressurized CO2 and have low-medium lighting. I have had success using Excel as a carbon source, and Flourish Comprehensive for ferts. I fertilize once per week, using half the recommended dose. I do use root tabs in the substrate, especially under rosette plants. In my slow growing tanks, I think the fish are adding enough macros.

This routine has worked for me.
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-04-2011, 10:58 PM Thread Starter
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Guppy grass is not just a floating plant. I have most of it rooted and the roots can go 1/2 the length of a 10 gallon tank. But anyway I trying to slowly eliminate most of it, and aquire some decorative plants...

I'm thinking of Anubias, Mosses, Java Ferns and crypts.

I spend enough time with RO water, adjusting it, shrimps babies, water changes, etc., so I'm wonder about a very simple easy fert application... if it exists. So only substrate pellets and a water column fert....all shrimp safe.

Please don't get too technical YET...I have not taken the dive yet into super planted tanks...lol I have stepped into nice planted tanks and am just getting my feet wet.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-04-2011, 11:01 PM
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For most mosses, avoid excel.

You can likely get by just fine with a quality root tab and occasional flourish dosing with those plants. They are undemanding and slow growing. If your lights are low, then expect slow growth and you should be fine.

Just don't put osmocote in your water column. Please.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-04-2011, 11:08 PM Thread Starter
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TY, you gave me enough warning on osmocote.... the shrimps are #1 in the tanks for now, not the plants.
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-05-2011, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverStocked View Post
People using Osmocote in their thanks didn't think of it on their own.... No one had done it prior to the production of RootMedic.
.......................

search these pages for osmocote or osmocoat...

the krib... circa 1995... http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/kelly-intro.html

and still withstanding past jan 2005 on redrum.org... http://web.archive.org/web/200501222...GA/budget.html

circa 1995... http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertil...at-litter.html

circa 1997... http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/cec.html

circa 1997... http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plant.../msg00045.html

right here, on this very site... circa january 2007... (ironic date?)... https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...root-tabs.html

*now, i have no idea when rootmedic was founded, but jake from the jake-arium seems to suggest that...

Quote:
RootMedic started in February of 2010, when Justin, a South Dakota native (a long time aquarist and the man behind RootMedic), decided that it was time to fill a gap.
at which point, i personally... and many before me... was using not only osmocote fertcicles, but was also using osmocote in red clay as suggested in some posts/articles circa long before 2009

then there's the copyright date of 2009 on every page of root medics site.

*it is my understanding that jake had consent from justin personally to write this review.

__________________________________________________ ______________________


one thing i have noticed is there is much more to be found referencing osmocote in the substrate after 2007. this does especially pertain to 2010 until now. however, i believe this has more to do with having information readily available and busting some myths than just a blanket statement like saying that everyone is copying someone who's marketing a similar product. granted... for many posting and making/selling on this site currently, that might actually be the case... but it certainly isn't for everyone including myself. i also suspect that truth be told, osmocote substrate usage goes back much further than that, but finding proof is going to consistently become harder and harder as older information is further archived and/or completely removed from the web altogether as old servers are taken off line completely.

EDIT: and flourish contains the following macros (note all 3 macros)...
Total Nitrogen
0.07%
Available Phosphate ( P2O5)
0.01%
Soluble Potash
0.37%

just not in quantities that are notable... but it has proven to be enough in some low light planted tanks with high fish loads and/or hard water in the past.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-05-2011, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dundadundun View Post
.......................

search these pages for osmocote or osmocoat...

the krib... circa 1995... http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/kelly-intro.html

and still withstanding past jan 2005 on redrum.org... http://web.archive.org/web/200501222...GA/budget.html

circa 1995... http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertil...at-litter.html

circa 1997... http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/cec.html

circa 1997... http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plant.../msg00045.html

right here, on this very site... circa january 2007... (ironic date?)... https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...root-tabs.html

*now, i have no idea when rootmedic was founded, but jake from the jake-arium seems to suggest that...



at which point, i personally... and many before me... was using not only osmocote fertcicles, but was also using osmocote in red clay as suggested in some posts/articles circa long before 2009

then there's the copyright date of 2009 on every page of root medics site.

*it is my understanding that jake had consent from justin personally to write this review.

__________________________________________________ ______________________


one thing i have noticed is there is much more to be found referencing osmocote in the substrate after 2007. this does especially pertain to 2010 until now. however, i believe this has more to do with having information readily available and busting some myths than just a blanket statement like saying that everyone is copying someone who's marketing a similar product. granted... for many posting and making/selling on this site currently, that might actually be the case... but it certainly isn't for everyone including myself. i also suspect that truth be told, osmocote substrate usage goes back much further than that, but finding proof is going to consistently become harder and harder as older information is further archived and/or completely removed from the web altogether as old servers are taken off line completely.
FWIW, the osmocote used a decade ago is an entirely different product than the osmocote recommended now. It is actually not even made anymore. They changed their membranes to a 3 structure design in 2006. Further, the osmocote used in 1995(basically your first 4 links are the same discussion extended over a few years) had no micros. You should read and note that the basically had no understanding of the product(much like now. Most people have no idea that it is a membrane product dependent on temperature and moisture/humidity for release rate).

RootMedic started production is 2006 with some simple tests comparing the different properties of the different scott's products. in 2007 we began working with scotts to design a membrane that was designed for full submersion.

What I find ironic is you spent the effort to jump on this train, but didn't want to point out the potentially dangerous advice of others.

The "level" of usage of osmocote products in 1995 seriously amounts to a few select people. You'll see the names of the posters over that time is select to just a few usernames and those with experience then still don't fully understand how it works.

Lots of people have tried things over the years, but the mainstream usage of these products didn't happen until others took risks and invested time, money and effort into a lot of them. Much like Tom Barr et all should take much of the credit for things like dry dosing(it has obviously been done for decades longer than EI, but in practice and popular acceptance it would be stalled still if people hadn't taken the leap and proven some actual facts behind it rather than simple speculation).

I shouldn't have said "no one did it" prior to rootmedic. That was a stupid misstatement and not true. However, prior to RootMedic, the number of people who claimed to have used it can be counted on one or two hands. I'm sorry for sounding like a pompous ass there. However, the number of people who have really understood anything about this is limited to you and a few others, prior to this time. RootMedic is NOT osmocote+. Similar in design and nearly identical in nutrient content, however the controlled release is designed for submersed use.

The differences that happened with we developed a more controlled membrane are no small thing, either.

I'm all about discussion and have always have been. Perhaps I shouldn't have let the emotion of the /thread crap push through like it did. One track minds don't get us very far in life, science, or this hobby.
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-05-2011, 04:02 AM
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i've seen the old product, the new product and the plugs of various types/names/ages and honestly, that helps me not in the least to discern the different characteristics when it comes to release rate, how many structures or how that relates to anything, really, unfortunately. if you have some insider information or know of a way to get some detailed information and/or explanations on that, please do share. as you might tell, i'm highly interested.

if you could elaborate on your specific membrane, i would appreciate that as well. i have a hard time just being told something is something without a semi-solid substantiation of a claim. most things i can simply look up, but proprietary formulas or membranes are a little tough. proprietary itself often suggests a certain err of anonymity which it seems the root medic membrane certainly upholds.

on the fact of potentially dangerous advice... i think you covered the tea bag discussion pretty well. if you need some back up, i'll just add "don't try it at home, folks".

a few select people posting about it or not, there are still to this day folks who reference those sites like they're holy books. not only that, but the knowledge gained on them is undeniable in certain cases and there seems to be the common understanding that cec and a cap to hold the ferts back for plant uptake were imperative. be that the most basic of understandings or not, it is the necessities and what you'd absolutely need to know in those cases. now, if you're referencing them not fully understanding how the membranes work on oc+ and related products, then yeah... i'd assume very few know and/or understand much about them to this day. that information isn't exactly out there to be found. i do know that there are places where scotts has printed material stating...

Quote:
Osmocote® releases on temperature alone! ... No amount of rain or irrigation will lead to excessive leaching.
for example this page... http://www.osmocote.co.za/about.htm

considering the different environments worldwide and from greenhouse to greenhouse, tank to tank (terra, viv, palu, aqua and now ripa) this would be a pretty bold statement if the product simply cannot hold up to submersion. Hu (the human element) would be very important when considering printing that statement on product pages worldwide. this is suggestive on what they're claiming given full submersion, don't you think?

lets face it... no matter what research you've done or education you've had, putting your first living thing regardless their taxonomy into a glass box is taking a risk one way or another. in a way, we're all pioneers.

i knew what you meant when you said "noone did it". i can't take away from you what you meant to say. however... what you wrote was an entirely different story and practically leaves no room for interpretation. it's good you corrected that.

your apology for "sounding like a pompous ass" was not only unnecessary, but it was accepted prior to it being offered. i too apologize for seeming like a jerk whos only intent is to get under your skin. however, i am utterly intrigued and completely interested in a deeper understanding of the product differences displayed often in your posts and repeated here...

Quote:
RootMedic is NOT osmocote+. Similar in design and nearly identical in nutrient content, however the controlled release is designed for submersed use.

The differences that happened with we developed a more controlled membrane are no small thing, either.
as far as letting emotion get to you... it's understandable. considering your primary occupation and your company, i think passion and emotion are necessary evils for you to do what you do and accomplish what you have. some times our passions can make it hard to switch that track and get us moving towards the right destination.
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-05-2011, 04:14 AM
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This is the quote from osmocote literature:
Quote:
Moisture . Temperature . Release .
An Osmocote Plus prill contains N-P-K, six micronutrients
and magnesium. Water vapor is absorbed into the prill
through the patented, polymer coating and dissolves the
fertilizer inside. The release of fertilizer is primarily controlled
by temperature. When it’s warmer and plants are growing
more actively, the coating expands allowing more fertilizer
to be released. When it’s colder, less fertilizer is released.
So, like we've stated temperature is primary control. However, the simple fact that it is a moisture dependent barrier and moisture is the carrier, not air, if there is MORE moisture, there is more transfer.

A simple test is to put a prill of osmocote in a cup covered with sand. Test the water for ammonia and sample daily for a week.

Then take a prill and put it in water with no cover. It will leach ammonia very fast(what I discussed before about the tea bag idea...). Water flow through this is the cause. You'll also see that osmocote membranes that are left in water for a very long time tend to expand slightly. This is part of the change.

The best, over the counter retail comparison to RootMedic would the 14-16 month version of osmocote Pro. I don't believe it comes in the exact formula I use(which is essentially identical to Osmocote+). In dry soil, the rate of depletion is over a year. In constant submersion, it is less than 6 months.

Osmocote has changed their formulas and membranes several times over the last decade. Their last system, which is patterned release(more upfront, less upfront, constant) is rather intriguing. Not sure that it really has any practical use for us, but interesting none the less. It is partially dependent on a membrane "clog" that washes out over time.

The primary difference between Osmocote+ and RootMedic is the thickness of the membrane.

In typical fashion I've derailed another topic....

to the Op. Assuming you have low light, flourish will likely be MORE than sufficient for the low demand plants you've intended to use.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-05-2011, 04:23 AM
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That was an interesting discussion about the beginnings of Root Medic substrate fertilizers. I remembered this
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fe...ng-closed.html and thought that was when Root Medic first appeared on the scene, but it must have just been when I first heard of it.

My next tank setup will be low light, possible with Black Diamond as a substrate, and I was thinking of using Root Medic fertilizer tabs instead of going to the trouble of making some MTS. Now, I'm even more interested in doing so.

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