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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
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Muric Acid?

I have a white mold type fungus on my new drift wood and read somewhere that the tannis leaching from the wood prevents the mold fungus bacteria from forming. I removed all the tannis and wanted to add acid to the tank. Nothings in it accept the substrate and wood. What has to be said about this crazy idea? I figured they both make the water more acidic. If whatever it is in the tank goes away I would change the water.
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 04:19 PM
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tannins are tannins (water stain)
fungus growth (usually white or milky) on new driftwood is normal and goes away on it's own just like diatom algae does on new tanks.

I wouldn't change the buffer/alter the water with acid


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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 04:29 PM
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Agree with wkndracer.

Your tank will manage its self... leave it be except for your regular water changes and they will keep your tannins low and water mostly clear (depends on the wood)
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 05:04 PM
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Most new DW I've added gets the white fungus at first. I just leave it, it goes away and the shrimp seem to love eating it in the meantime. lol.

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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkndracer View Post
tannins are tannins (water stain)
fungus growth (usually white or milky) on new driftwood is normal and goes away on it's own just like diatom algae does on new tanks.

I wouldn't change the buffer/alter the water with acid
Actually, tannins don't just "stain" the water. There are a TON of different "tannins", but by default the produce Tannic or Gallic acid. From wiki "Gallic acid seems to have anti-fungal and anti-viral properties"

However, I would not start using Hydrochloric acid(I assume the OP meant muriatic) as an anti-fungal. Time will fix it just fine.

The Wiki Read on Tannins is interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 05:58 PM
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Or, if the piece of driftwood is small enough (or you have a big enough pot), boil it a few times and that should clear up the white stuff that grows.

None of my shrimp ever touch the stuff, only thing that did was a fiddler crab, they went apey over the stuff.


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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverStocked View Post
Actually, tannins don't just "stain" the water. There are a TON of different "tannins", but by default the produce Tannic or Gallic acid. From wiki "Gallic acid seems to have anti-fungal and anti-viral properties"

However, I would not start using Hydrochloric acid(I assume the OP meant muriatic) as an anti-fungal. Time will fix it just fine.

The Wiki Read on Tannins is interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin
Understanding many things can contribute to water staining or tannins a KISS response to the OP's question in my post regarding the fungal growth. Funny too that the wiki sites "anti-fungal and anti-viral properties" yet we see posts of driftwood developing a film and causing this concern all the time on the forum. If the wood is the source of the tannins (which we know it is) then fungus growth on it and the tannins leaching from the wood having anti-fungal properties seems like an oxymoron to me.

Using at least 5 different types of wood here (some unknown) with all leaching and staining the water along with the MGOPM doing the same also I haven't seen a shift in parameters large enough (pH or dKH) to test a shift in reading when I test tank water.


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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 06:24 PM
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Fungus will go away. Many of us get it and it goes away on its own. You can take it out whenever you see it.

I don't know all this stuff about tannins. I don't do tannins!
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkndracer View Post
Understanding many things can contribute to water staining or tannins a KISS response to the OP's question in my post regarding the fungal growth. Funny too that the wiki sites "anti-fungal and anti-viral properties" yet we see posts of driftwood developing a film and causing this concern all the time on the forum. If the wood is the source of the tannins (which we know it is) then fungus growth on it and the tannins leaching from the wood having anti-fungal properties seems like an oxymoron to me.

Using at least 5 different types of wood here (some unknown) with all leaching and staining the water along with the MGOPM doing the same also I haven't seen a shift in parameters large enough (pH or dKH) to test a shift in reading when I test tank water.
Well the KISS approach to me would be one that is accurate. While it might seem you've never had Tannins change water parameters, many of us HAVE.

Depending on the source, tannins have a higher concentration and a different molecular weight. Tannins from wood like bogwood are much more concentrated and lowered the pH of my water(source water pH 8.4, KH/Gh of liquid rock) by about .3 pH.

Blackwater extract is essentially concentrated tannic acid, and obviously will lower the pH/KH. It should have no effect on GH. Almond leaves soften water due to the tannins they release.

The oxymoron you refer to seems to more likely be a misunderstanding. The antifungal properties are well discussed:
http://www.znaturforsch.com/ac/v55c/55c0467.pdf


Just because a driftwood(which likely contains high amounts of fungal spores) grows some growth on it, does not change the properties of tannins. It means that the concentrations of tannins produced are lower than needed to kill the growths.

Not sure why the argument here, considering the definitions and properties of tannins are pretty well established through a thousand years of science. Tannins are certainly more complex than just staining the water.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 07:40 PM
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It's also important to note that "anti-fungal" just means a state that fungus will not thrive and survive in... it doesn't mean the fungus won't try.


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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverStocked View Post
Well the KISS approach to me would be one that is accurate. While it might seem you've never had Tannins change water parameters, many of us HAVE.

Depending on the source, tannins have a higher concentration and a different molecular weight. Tannins from wood like bogwood are much more concentrated and lowered the pH of my water(source water pH 8.4, KH/Gh of liquid rock) by about .3 pH.

Not sure why the argument here, considering the definitions and properties of tannins are pretty well established through a thousand years of science. Tannins are certainly more complex than just staining the water.
Doesn't 'seem' like haven't,,, I have not had a parameter shift cause me any problems in an aquarium to date.
This 'stump' and a couple pieces to extend the root appearance is the largest wood addition I've used.



Gave a simple answer in the context of this thread,,, which I read to be adding a piece of driftwood and concerns over fungus growth.

Didn't think I was answering a thread topic of additions to reduce pH by alterations / additions of known materials like bogwood, black water extract, almond leaves or adler cones.

0.3pH shift isn't one that would concern me and would agree with the statement I made of the change being one that may be missed determining color shift on a chemical water test.

"I have a white mold type fungus on my new drift wood"
is posted all the time. Nothing wrong with the answer I gave the OP.

Why do you see argument here?


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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkndracer View Post
Doesn't 'seem' like haven't,,, I have not had a parameter shift cause me any problems in an aquarium to date.
This 'stump' and a couple pieces to extend the root appearance is the largest wood addition I've used.



Gave a simple answer in the context of this thread,,, which I read to be adding a piece of driftwood and concerns over fungus growth.

Didn't think I was answering a thread topic of additions to reduce pH by alterations / additions of known materials like bogwood, black water extract, almond leaves or adler cones.

0.3pH shift isn't one that would concern me and would agree with the statement I made of the change being one that may be missed determining color shift on a chemical water test.

"I have a white mold type fungus on my new drift wood"
is posted all the time. Nothing wrong with the answer I gave the OP.

Why do you see argument here?
I didn't state that the parameter change caused a problem, did I? As a matter of fact, I didn't even bring it up....

All I did was correct a simple misstatement. Tannins are more than a stain in the water.
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 09:48 PM
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hahaha far enough, outside the context of this threads topic it might be
but rather than misstated thought you called it an argument

back to my nap now


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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 09:53 PM
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You're continued "discussion" made it an argument.

Perhaps we should look at the definition of "argument" to understand this.

ar·gu·ment   [ahr-gyuh-muhnt] Show IPA
noun
1.
an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument.
2.
a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.

You "argued" against my correction of your initial misstatement. Thus an "argument". Your continuing of it sort of proves my point.

If you're going to simplify something so much that it puts a piece of false information out there, don't get upset when people correct it. Someone could easily come along, see that(or search for tannins) and decide that tannins will never have any other effect than to color the water. Simply speaking, that would be wrong.
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
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Oh goodness everyone getting all worked up lol. I shall wait till Christmas and see what happens.
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