Nitrate - The Planted Tank Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-30-2011, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Posts: 745
Nitrate

What is the ideal nitrate level for a planted tank?

Also when dosing the tank with nitrogen is it harmful for the fish to go from 0 ppm nitrate to say 10?

Thanks
mcaquatic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-30-2011, 08:33 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Madras, OR
Posts: 19
Although I like to keep my NitrAte level below 20 ppm, no harm for levels below 40 ppm
Aspencer is offline  
post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-30-2011, 08:45 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
BlueJack's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Fl
Posts: 736
Fish can withstand nitrate levels up to ~80ppm for a week or two and still live. You probably don't want to keep it at those levels for too long though. EI dosing for ~20ppm seems to be what works well for most because your plants will reduce that amount daily.

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
l
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
l
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
l
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
BlueJack is offline  
 
post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-30-2011, 10:17 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (267/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,609
Fish can withstand at least 160ppm for 3 weeks, with no side effects of any sort noted.

Research suggest up in the ranges of 800ppm for a LD50 for warm water freshwater fish species.(see Carmargo et al, 2005). Other data suggest 199ppm of N (to get NO3, you need to multiply by 4.4)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...43135477900793


If you remove an order of magnitude, you should be quite safe.
CO2?

Folks kill fish in this hobby every week with that, but no one ask or worries about it for some reason curiously.

I've never met a single a person or heard of a single substantiated case of anyone killing their fish with KNO3. Been looking for 15 some years.




Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline  
post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-30-2011, 10:30 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (18/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 2,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
Fish can withstand at least 160ppm for 3 weeks, with no side effects of any sort noted.
What about inverts or amphibians?

Snail Glades,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Rainer is offline  
post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-01-2011, 12:32 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
BlueJack's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Fl
Posts: 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
Fish can withstand at least 160ppm for 3 weeks, with no side effects of any sort noted.

Research suggest up in the ranges of 800ppm for a LD50 for warm water freshwater fish species.(see Carmargo et al, 2005). Other data suggest 199ppm of N (to get NO3, you need to multiply by 4.4)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...43135477900793

I've never met a single a person or heard of a single substantiated case of anyone killing their fish with KNO3. Been looking for 15 some years.

That's a little misleading. I've seen a study on bluegills being able to tolerate 8,690ppm NO3 for short-term exposures (Trama, 1954). Short term studies like that are only partially insightful. Nitrates are still toxic, just much more so over long periods of time, and increasingly with quantity.

"The main toxic action of nitrate on aquatic animals is due to the conversion of oxygen-carrying pigments (e.g., hemoglobin, hemocyanin) to forms that are incapable of carrying oxygen."

That seems like it would be stressful.

It is known that a nitrate concentration > 44ppm can adversely affect, at least during long-term exposures, freshwater invertebrates, fishes, amphibians and....even humans.

For protecting the most sensitive freshwater species a maximum level of 8.8ppm NO3 would be appropriate.

http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water_...08/ref2426.pdf

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
l
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
l
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
l
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by BlueJack; 07-01-2011 at 04:07 AM.
BlueJack is offline  
post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-01-2011, 05:32 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (267/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainer View Post
What about inverts or amphibians?
Shrimp like RCS are fine.
I did mange to kill a few amano's, but..........was it due to solely to the KNO3?
I cannot say.

shrimp die for other reasons too, so that cannot be confirmed entirely, but the fish? Yes, they are survived without any issues. If some did die, then it would still not prove that KNO3 did it, only what did not do it.

There's a huge difference with the logic above.

Can you see and tell the difference?

Since you seem concerned about stress, what the heck do you think CO2 does to fish respiration????? How about low current and little surface turnover?????????

There's where you should be focusing in on. Ferts are essentially non toxic over a massive wide range of error for our purposes.

The most sensitive species are Salmon fry and trout fry, cold water hyper sensitive species adapted to ultra pure water, warm water species are far tougher. Look it up and read the fish that are suggesting this for. Poecilia reticulatus is the only warmer water tropical fish on the list there. Blue gill and catfish are tougher than nails. Trout/salmon are very wimpy wimpy.

The devil is in the details and methods & what specifically is being tested, are you comparing apples to oranges ................or something else?

Takes some effort and asking or more questions and how to apply them to our cases.

I bred shrimp, they tend to be much more sensitive to CO2 and nutrients, never had an issue even with inbred high grade CRS.

These where all culled from my planted tanks and make ideal models for toxicity testing.


This is the canary to compare ferts against. We can measure things like growth and brood production, sub lethal measures of stress and developmental stages.

Harder to do with fish.




Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline  
post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-01-2011, 07:15 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
BlueJack's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Fl
Posts: 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
Trout/salmon are very wimpy wimpy.
Thank you for the correction. I didn't know I was basing my logic on the "Steve Urkels" of the fish world.

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
l
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
l
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
l
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
BlueJack is offline  
post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-01-2011, 09:40 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Posts: 745
Thank you for the replies.

So I should be aiming to supplement enough to have levels about 20 ppm?
mcaquatic is offline  
post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-01-2011, 11:20 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (84/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 21,012
A lot depends on how much light you use. With high light, 100 mms of PAR, for example, the plants grow fast, using lots of nitrates, carbon, potassium, etc. So, it becomes critical to dose enough so that nutrients never limit the growth rate of the plants. But, with much lower light, like 30-40 mms of PAR, the growth rate for the plants is much lower, and they don't need as much of any of the nutrients. You still shouldn't let nutrients limit the growth rate, but it takes less in the water to do that. The amounts recommended in the sticky in this forum are for high light and well planted tanks. With low light and/or less dense plantings you can cut back on those. None of the concentrations involved will be harmful to the fish.

Hoppy
Hoppy is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome