PPS Pro vs EI Dosing - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 08:27 PM Thread Starter
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PPS Pro vs EI Dosing

I was courious to see the differences between the PPS Pro and EI fertilization programs, I realize one is weekly with slow growth expected and the other 3 times per week with high growth rates expected but I'm thinking about the ratio of different elements. If I mix 470 ml of water with the reccomended grams of nutients in the PPS Pro program below is the amount I would have to add to meet a single day of EI dosing requirements.

The amounts used below are for a 150 gallon tank and the EI dosing requirements.

130 ml PPS Pro = KN03 1.5 tsp EI
320 ml PPS Pro = KH2P04 3/8 tsp EI
40 ml PPS Pro = K2S04 3/8 tsp EI

20 ml PPS Pro = Plantex CSM+B 3/8 tsp EI

PPS Pro uses 1/8 tsp MgS04 per 150 gallons and EI uses some in the gH Booster if you have soft water or use a RO/DI unit

EI call for gH Booster due to the weekly water changes.

I don't if this means anything at all but I am just confused at the ratio from one system to the next, there doesn't seem to be any balance between the two systems.


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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 08:37 PM
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Its fruit and vegetables. One has nothing to do with the other and their is no comparison.

Estimative Index is meant to provide nutrients to the system and attempt to eliminate potential deficiencies by providing a target level well above what is needed. PPS pro attempts to target closer uptake levels (without measuring for uptake levels) and limiting excess nutrients in the water column.

There is no right or wrong way and both have their pros and cons. Don't try and relate "growth speed" with dosing regimes either. This is a false statement and when it comes down to it, stability and proper nutrients for your plants will give you optimal growth. PPS pro is not meant to stunt growth, just limit the excess.

So... I use a modified "EI" so to speak. I dose certain levels that I know I need in the tank and let the system do its thing. I do my water changes weekly and do it all over again. Stable, routine and on point with my system. I see something go astray, I make an adjustment. Whatever it is that you are doing, be consistent and make changes slowly. Drastic jumps cause issues from my experience, by YMMV.

Does that help at all? There is just really no comparison from one regime to the other other than the end game, growing plants.


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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 08:41 PM
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To go one step further, there is anther regime out there called Method of Controlled Imbalances (MCI). I believe there is some discussion here on it, but there is a massive thread over on APC about it. Something to look at and the guy really did his homework on it. Some here would dispute its claims since the "perfect science" is not really a perfect science. But you throw that in the mix of comparison with EI and PPS Pro and your head will spin.

Try them all I say. Find what you find gives you the most positive gains with the most rewards. One is not always meant for another.


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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 08:46 PM
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+1 with waht was already mentioned...two completely different systems that use a different method to achieve the same results

I personally use a hybrid method using "autodosing" air pumps because its not an exact science...dump so much solution into the tank daily and a water change at the end of the week (25%) just in case...water and ferts are cheap ($30 is like a 2-3 year supply)
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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I tried the PPS Pro while my tank was in the rebuild stage and I didn't have the lighting for anything else and it may be a good or ok system but I wasn't impressed mainly be cause I wanted more growth and that's not what PPS is designed to do. I'm am using substrate ferts and will start a modified EI method soon but I was just surprised at some rather large differences between the 2 systems, example PPS pro uses almost no KH2P04 compaired to EI, just courious.

Most of what I do with my tank revolves around a total lack of funds for this hobby or my motorcycle, camera, lens, etc so I am definately good on saving a buck with Osmocote, dry ferts, etc and always trying to do the best I can with what I have and trying to fully understand everything at the same time. If I could I would trash my 8 year old Flourite and get $400 worth of ADA AS and try something more like Tom's tank in style and view, but every time I look at that post I am first envious because I love what I see, but then I start to count in my head and it's quickly over.

Thanks for your help.


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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 09:22 PM Thread Starter
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I guess my problem is the line of work I come from (landscaping) and if I wan't fuller, thicker, greener grass I would a some 30-3-7 96% organic slow release fertilizer, if I want it greener without a lot of growth, chelated iron, if I got dandylions, spurge, etc. get some Super Trimec broadleaf weed herbicide. But I just don't fully understand the under water world, it's more delicate, and the ferts are broken in segments, and I guess I want to know how to string them together and get the exact result I'm looking for in the tank.

Some of my customers and contractor friend just couldn't understand the concept of a turf program and it used to really bug me "what are they stupid or something" now it's me and it's painful, I'm not totally in the dark, but I want to be at the other end of the tunnel.


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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 150EH View Post
now it's me and it's painful, I'm not totally in the dark, but I want to be at the other end of the tunnel.
LMAO so don't we all LOL

Apples and oranges is PPS and EI. I've followed both along with Walstad's method of NPT and done an MTS tank too. The liquid ferts I now dose you'd never recognize as Edwards formulas being tweaked over and over. It's now 'my trace soup' and using a macro with little NO3 along with enriched substrate. Still not settled though as things change all the time.

Things are easiest if you remember there is no wrong way to do this as long as everything doesn't die in the process.

I don't think there is a 'perfect method' for everyone. If there was EI comes the closest for known results. Just too many tanks here working with RO for it to be what I do.


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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 10:15 PM
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If there is a problem with worrying about which fertilizing method to use, it is that it leads you to work on the easy problem and ignore the harder problems - CO2 and light. Getting a "good" level of CO2 in the tank is difficult, almost impossible to measure, and isn't a fixed number, but one that can vary widely as conditions change in the tank. Getting a rational amount of light in the tank is still difficult because far too many people think more is better, where light is concerned. And, deciding what light fixture to use on any given tank is difficult.

If someone can simplify and make easy the techniques for arriving at good CO2 in the water and good lighting, that will do far more good than anything done to fine tune fertilizing methods.

Hoppy
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 150EH View Post
I was courious to see the differences between the PPS Pro and EI fertilization programs, I realize one is weekly with slow growth expected and the other 3 times per week with high growth rates expected but I'm thinking about the ratio of different elements.
What do you mean one is weekly? You dose PPS Pro daily; they are both meant for good speed of growth; just different ways to get there.
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 11:11 PM Thread Starter
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Maybe that's why I wasn't impressed with the system, I thought it was weekly but I went back to the site and it doesn't say either way, maybe that was suggested here due to my lighting at the time. I did start out weekly and ended up daily with no results until I started using Osmocote in the substrate. \

I'm not trying to compare systems but figure out exactly what the elements involved get you, that's why I wanted to know why they are so different.


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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-10-2011, 12:03 AM
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PPS and PPS Pro both have a built in imbalance of nutrients in the formulas as I was told.
First by Edward himself in the printed works regarding PPS which required testing to index the daily dosing levels. Then I was evolved in an exchange with Tom Barr here back when I was using it and the information posted at the time, which is now lost with the hosting site going down was flawed. Flawed in that the dry analysis of plant tissues was completely off on the percentages posted. That dry weight percentage was stated to be the basis of the PPS systems. Later getting Diana Walstad's book the information there is much more inline with what T. Barr discussed than anything Edward had published in the works on PPS and PPS Pro. The data is skewed off for some reason in that system.

HTH explain the ratio difference in the dosing amounts.


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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-10-2011, 12:24 AM
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The EI system makes no attempt at "balance", so an imbalance is irrelevant in that system. EI just makes the attempt to prevent any nutrient from limiting the plants growth rate, by always having at least as much of all of them in the water as the plants need. And, since it is based on estimates of what the plants will need, and is based on a high light, well planted tank, it has a lot of rounding off of dosages to the high side. Other systems try to provide just what the plants need, no more but possibly less.

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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-10-2011, 12:32 AM
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Coming from someone that has tried them both, they each have pros and cons. Overall, I liked PPS Pro until I tried other methods. One major thing I always noticed with PPS pro was Green Spot algae and hair algae was an issue. With EI, I didn't like the enormous jump in growth. So like many on here, I do a hybrid. However, if I were debating about which one to do and I wanted more growth, hands down, I'd do EI again.

Without Algae, death of mankind would be inevitable.

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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-10-2011, 12:52 AM
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dry weight percentage analysis is stated to be the basis of the PPS systems


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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-10-2011, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatekeeper View Post
To go one step further, there is anther regime out there called Method of Controlled Imbalances (MCI). I believe there is some discussion here on it, but there is a massive thread over on APC about it. Something to look at and the guy really did his homework on it. Some here would dispute its claims since the "perfect science" is not really a perfect science. But you throw that in the mix of comparison with EI and PPS Pro and your head will spin.

Try them all I say. Find what you find gives you the most positive gains with the most rewards. One is not always meant for another.
I'm sorry, that guy did not do his homework.
Nor did Edward with PPS, do not like it, show that I am incorrect about this.

Case 1, MCI.......This is about algae control with ferts. You run around every algae type and and simply end up doing nothing but PMDD, limiting PO4 at the end of the day, actually several months. This is no different than doing PMDD, then adding PO4 after all you have algae wise is GSA.
It's not about growing plants.

Why not resolve the issue right from the start?
There is no basic understanding of plants or algae here, it's just PMDD and then adding PO4 back later.

Why did you have algae to start with in these cases?
Where is the control?

Nowhere.

PPS pro, please..............please, for the live of anything Green and leafty..........detail how this is different from PMDD?

Paul Sears explicitedly pointed out the goal was limited PO4, about 0.2ppm he suggested. So adding KH2PO4 to PMDD was suggested. The dosign is the same, the concentration and the amounts are the same and target goals are the same.

The people have CHANGED, taking another's method and claiming it as their own is simply put: wrong. Paul and Kevin have never been given credit where is has LONG been due. I give them lots of credit for EI. Even the math to estimate the dosing ppm's is contained in there, I just argued for plants, not worrying about algae and added more.

In fact, all 3 of these all add the same things.

NO3
PO4
Traces
GH
K+

The only differences is in the amounts.
EI simply suggested that excess ferts do not cause harm and that providing a non limiting amount provides a reference for ferts that is independent, and I've followed this up for over a decade on CRS, Dicus, Rare catfish, 300+ species of plants. I've shown these brood to folks in local clubs, in national clubs and on many forums. Same with scapes, algae and plants.

I think I have done my homework.

Modified Hoagland's solution is used in agricultural, plant, environmental, Ecological studies to provided non limiting reference control so that other interactions are not dependent on nutrients.
No method in aquarium dosing has ever suggested this except.........EI.

If some one adds more PMDD, they end up with EI.
If someone 2x the water changes as PMDD, they end up with EI
If someone doubles the CO2, they have EI.

If someone cuts and slowly adjust the EI down by 1/3rd, they end up with PMDD.

I wanna know why PPS does not give credit to PMDD and a helping heaping to Paul and Kevin. I've been picking on this bone for about 8 years now, never did get an answer. I got no issues given plenty of credit where it is due. Also got no issue ripping those that not and claim stuff as their own.
They rightly deserve it.

These methods all add the same things.




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Tom Barr
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