N and internode length - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 03:59 AM Thread Starter
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N and internode length

Through a thread I posted about a plant I had that was not doing well someone said they could tell that my N was high because the internodes on my plants was lengthy. Is this something that happens when there are high levels or N present in the planted tank?

Just never heard of this before.


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post #2 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 05:44 AM
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You might review Jackson's papers on elongation in Rice, Rumex etc.......
Low O2, poor growth in general, reduced CO2 etc........these seem to play a larger role. Flood tolerance and escape of the low O2 region and more light, plenty of CO2.........




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post #3 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 02:43 PM
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+1 tom

I've never heard nor understand how relative amounts of N could make a difference in the growth of the plant, either it has the ferts to grow and uses them as it needs to, or it doesn't. Having more ferts isn't going to make the internodes/stem shorter/longer, it's the light/o2/co2/flow/ect concentrations where the plant physically is that determine that.

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post #4 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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I hadnt ever heard of it before either. I posted up a pic of some Hyptis that was doing great in my tank at first but then took a turn for the worst. A member commented that from the looks of my internodes there was ample N in the column. I had never heard of this so I wanted to check its validity.

As far a s co2 is concerned, come on Tom. You know I gas my fish until they are about asleep then kick it back a bit. My drop checker stays green even into the next day.


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post #5 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmith View Post
I hadnt ever heard of it before either. I posted up a pic of some Hyptis that was doing great in my tank at first but then took a turn for the worst. A member commented that from the looks of my internodes there was ample N in the column. I had never heard of this so I wanted to check its validity.

As far a s co2 is concerned, come on Tom. You know I gas my fish until they are about asleep then kick it back a bit. My drop checker stays green even into the next day.
I've had hyptis for about 6 months. I used to have the same experience as you- the stems looked great until they got over 12" and then leaves would start dropping. The best remedy is frequent top trimmings and dose extra Ca and Mg. I think its got pretty high Ca/Mg requirements.
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post #6 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 10:53 PM
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That's funny because I have Cobomba Carolina and have placed Osmocote gel caps under the plants and in a week or just about the time the nutrients shoud have come available it started to grow like crazy and the internodes started to get leggy. They where about a inch apart from the retailer and after ferts 2 inches or a little more. More light and CO2 had been added to the tank prior to the ferts with little or no change for a couple of weeks, so it's not definite. In the landscape business I always thought leggy plants were caused by rapid growth from excess nitrogen???????


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post #7 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 12:29 AM Thread Starter
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Heres what im talking about. The plants look like they are dealing with an iron deff but that would be practically impossible since I dose root medic micros (and macros) plus Flourish Fe.





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post #8 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmith View Post
I hadnt ever heard of it before either. I posted up a pic of some Hyptis that was doing great in my tank at first but then took a turn for the worst. A member commented that from the looks of my internodes there was ample N in the column. I had never heard of this so I wanted to check its validity.

As far a s co2 is concerned, come on Tom. You know I gas my fish until they are about asleep then kick it back a bit. My drop checker stays green even into the next day.
Considering few have suggested any correlation, on many many other species.....with N......this is just speculation without much support, if any.

I've dosed pretty rich N for a long time with many stems, never have I seen any relationship here. I have not grown this particularly species, but if might be true, the poster has not show that it is..and while wildly popular for the NEW STEM O the Month..rumor and speculation run rampant.

Few facts emerge.

This is always the case.

I have yet to find one of these claims about a plant preferring some special treatment, this was with over 300 species. While possible, the likelihood is extremely small and I would remain very skeptical at best.

Everyone of these claims has ended up being false.

Recall Tonina and S. belem etc that MUST have acidic sediments and low pH and low KH near zero? Plenty of folks have very different conditions and grow them and sell them all the time here now.

Hummmmmm.....

What do you honestly think?




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post #9 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 04:30 AM Thread Starter
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I was honestly hoping that you would say "You know what Brandon, I have noticed that with Hyptis higher levels of N have shown some elongation between internodes" but what I actually knew you would say you have. It is just frustrating that this plant was doing so wonderfully and then took a turn for the worst. Not completely melting or anything but growing in very homely.

What do the pics I posted look like they are lacking in? Fe but I cant believe that could be the case due to what and the amounts of Fe that I dose.

Just more confusing plant crap!


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post #10 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
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What do the pics I posted look like they are lacking in? Fe but I cant believe that could be the case due to what and the amounts of Fe that I dose.

Just more confusing plant crap!
I would guess Ca/Mg. That's always my first guess when there's lots of leaf curling w/o holes.

Now that I see the picture, those leaves do look extremely green for Hyptis. Excessively green foliage is a classic sign of N overdose for terrestrial plants, so the other poster you're referring too may have a point.
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post #11 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2011, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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So just change water and dose less?


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post #12 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2011, 08:59 PM
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What do the pics I posted look like they are lacking in?
Ca and/or Mg.
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post #13 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2011, 09:18 PM
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So just change water and dose less?
I'd dose more and do more water changes and CO2 check.
I've never once found any evidence that less helps except with lighting.
You can dose more Ca/Mg, this never hurts.

It's like any nutrient.

But N and Ca/Mg play no role I can think of in aquatic elongation.
CO2, gas exchange, general growth/neglect do.

Jackson:

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/103/2/137.full

This paper gives the general fig 2 and 3 idea of what occurs for elongation.

http://www.plantstress.com/articles/...ter%20rice.pdf

If the plant has reduced CO2 (say from us not adding enough) and thus less O2 as well...........it's response is similar to flooding. Less O2 is present, CO2 stress is higher. Plants respond by elongating to the surface.
Once at the surface, they can get ample CO2 and O2.
This is characterized down to the DNA itself.

Less O2 can be produced if you limited some nutrient as well.
But simply adding more ferts would resolve that over time.
Adjusting CO2 could be the reason also.




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post #14 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2011, 09:22 PM
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I do not think where you live has poor Ca and Mg, unless you use RO for all water changes, it's highly unlikely.

I get sierra snow melt, about as pure as water gets from the tap(they sell it for bottled water), I do not dose that much GH.

If you limit ferts also, well, like a bonsai, the growth will be stunted, this is not reduced internodal length, this is a stunted plants, this is a rather large difference. You can limit several different nutrients and have this occur.

Keeping to teetering between stunting and the desired spacing is a PITA and fruitless over the long term realistically. Some manage to do it for awhile, but often had issues over time. Being a green thumb should not have to be such a headache I believe and advise.




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post #15 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2011, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
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I just cleaned the diffuser im using today (inline cal aqua). But over the past couple of months I was cranking it up to try to account for loss of efficiency due to dirtying.

I will also add in a bit of GH booster to try to counteract any negative effects that the CA/MG were/could have been causing.

Ill report back in a week.

Thanks everyone.


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