No Phosphate? - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 10:18 PM Thread Starter
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No Phosphate?

Is it possible to EI dose without Phosphorus and still get good results? I've been reading around a lot, and found a lot of conflicting information regarding the use of Phosphate by plants. Has anyone tried this or have any information regarding this?
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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 10:38 PM
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About 15 years ago and ever since then.........folks have been adding PO4
at fairly high amounts.

I dose 5ppm 3x a week to this tank.
I've breed Sturisoma, and RCS, and harvest about 200$ worth of plants a month on average

What do you think?



See any conflict if PO4 causes algae?
If PO4 is the cause, where is the algae?

Simple question, and the results are simple as well, this claim must be false, period. This result does not say why you or anyone else has algae(there are many possible reasons), only what it cannot be due to: excess PO4.




Regards,
Tom Barr

Last edited by plantbrain; 06-04-2011 at 07:24 PM.
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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 10:49 PM
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am i correct in saying phosphates cause photo plankton blooms in the ocean but do not cause alge in fresh water?
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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 11:08 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply and very beautiful tank you have there Mr. Barr. I have been reading a lot about EI dosing but I'm unable to get my hands on some KH2PO4. The articles I have read are about whether PO4 is actually required for healthy root growth not algae.

Is it possible to follow the EI dosing schedule without KH2PO4 and still get good results?
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-04-2011, 01:52 AM
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I haven't tried doing without phosphates, but several years ago I spent a lot of time reading old posts in The Krib, where people would report all kinds of plant grow difficulties, then try phosphates only to find it caused the nitrates in the water to disappear! This was because the plants began to grow as they should, now that they had phosphates, causing them to use up the available nitrates. The clear conclusion was that not dosing phosphates greatly reduced the plant growth rates.

I spent some time on Google looking for other phosphate compounds that you might be able to find, but had no success. Farmers use "super phosphate" among other things, but I don't know if that is usable in an aquarium or not, nor how to dose it if it is. Perhaps someone else here does know.

Hoppy
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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-04-2011, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveller View Post
Thanks for the reply and very beautiful tank you have there Mr. Barr. I have been reading a lot about EI dosing but I'm unable to get my hands on some KH2PO4. The articles I have read are about whether PO4 is actually required for healthy root growth not algae.

Is it possible to follow the EI dosing schedule without KH2PO4 and still get good results?
Green Leaf Aquariums has it.

http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aq...phosphate.html

never mind lol I did not look at where you were located.


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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-04-2011, 03:43 AM
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You definitely need 'P' of some sort.
Try
Fleet enema
http://www.fleetlabs.com/fleet_enema...ts.php?panel=0

if you can't find K2HPO4 or KH2PO4, there might be other means as well in root tabs or conventional plant fertilizers that you can bury deep in the substrate.


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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-04-2011, 07:21 PM
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Has anyone actually tried "triple super phosphate" in an aquarium. The amount needed would almost be microscopic, so the contaminants typical in agricultural grade fertilizers would make no difference. That should be available world-wide.

Another possibility is diammonium phosphate. The ammonium would be insignificant because of the low dosages of phosphates needed, and it contains about 3X as much phosphate as ammonium. This, too, is an agricultural grade fertilizer.

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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-04-2011, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jreich View Post
am i correct in saying phosphates cause photo plankton blooms in the ocean but do not cause alge in fresh water?
Depends.

It can, or cannot. Can you think of a few reasons why excess PO4 would NOT cause a bloom in the Ocean?

There's no evidence for support in freshwater systems where plants are present for this.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-05-2011, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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I found Super Phosphate G-SSP. I've been looking around to try and find out how and if I could dose it, but have found nothing.
Anyone have any idea?
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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-05-2011, 03:54 PM
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I think I would calculate the dosage needed to add 1 part per million of phosphate to the water, then dose the tank once and watch what happens. If you have a few feeder guppies in the tank you could probably see if it bothers them, which I doubt.

Assuming that doesn't cause problems, I would increase the dosage to maybe 2 ppm, and dose with the other EI fertilizers, and again watch for problems. After a couple of months of this, with no problems, only then would I consider trying it with fish I wanted to keep.

It might drop the pH of the tank water a little, so that should be monitored too. But, that would be such a small dosage I can't see how it could be a serious concern.

I hope someone with more knowledge will add their comments too.

Hoppy
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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-05-2011, 04:13 PM
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I found this information. http://www.organic-guano.com/Granular.htm

Figuring out dosing hurts my head though.
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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-05-2011, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathyy View Post
I found this information. http://www.organic-guano.com/Granular.htm

Figuring out dosing hurts my head though.
oh cool,
This is the info you need. Just dose half the amount recommended for PO4 since it has twice the 'P' in P2O5.
The actual compound is 010P4, P2O5 is it's empirical formula. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphosphorus_pentoxide
So, dose 1/4 of what you would in PO4.

I would make a solution out of it since it doesn't look like it will dissolve that quickly and it looks like it will release heat in water too if I understand the term exothermic hydrolysis correctly.


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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-05-2011, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
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oh cool,
This is the info you need. Just dose half the amount recommended for PO4 since it has twice the 'P' in P2O5.
The actual compound is 010P4, P2O5 is it's empirical formula. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphosphorus_pentoxide
So, dose 1/4 of what you would in PO4.

I would make a solution out of it since it doesn't look like it will dissolve that quickly and it looks like it will release heat in water too if I understand the term exothermic hydrolysis correctly.
I would make a solution too, just to reduce one possible problem - the fish mouthing pieces of it.

Here is a MSDS portion, about this:


With that, I would feel much more confident about trying it in an aquarium. The effect on pH is the only question I see.

Hoppy
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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-05-2011, 07:16 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone, once again this is why this forum is the best when it comes to planted tanks

I'm going to try it out and see what happens, hopefully if I'm cautious enough it won't have any ill effects on the fish. I just don't want to expose any of my stock to something they may harm them or kill them.
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