what is this deficiency?? using flourish line.. - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 02:47 AM Thread Starter
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what is this deficiency?? using flourish line..

sorry for the double post I put this up in general forum too

I get wavy growth in ludwigia plants such as the repens I was growing, now I just put in ludwigia inclinata var varriegated cuba, and its all wavy and does not look at all like pics

ludwigia just got put in a little over a week ago and are in process of switching to submersed

I show this deficiency slightly in my aubias, lobelia cardinlas, and just very slightly in my hygrow, leaves will tend to fold to one side or another have wavy edge, or middle vein looks like its growing faster than rest of leaf and will make wavy by puffing up in middle and then curling in towards end

tank is 75 gallon

I have 318 w all coralife lights, most of lighting PC is 67k and 4 14w t5 not HO bulds with 55k colormax and 10k bulbs I use a 10 hour photoperiod

substrate is mostly flourish black and black sand with some eco complete in as well, used over 150 lbs all together.. so its a nice deep substrate that should still have some good nutrients left in it, also I smashed up 4 root tabs and put on bottom of substrate along with some smashed bacter balls from ada.

TDS of well water is 135 usually which is relatively soft and I am told it lacks regular amounts of calcium, it may also be high in phosphates but I do not know for sure as I dont know where to get it tested.... this is usually mixed 40% RO and 60% tap, but tank usually has a TDS of 138-140 PPM

tank has been going about 6 mo

I have a large co2 system and pump about the max that I can get disolved into it, i get lots of pearling

I dose a recomended chart from Flourish and use there complete line

this is my schedule
mon
10ml excell,
6ml flourish comp
8ml iron
4ml phosphate
4ml nitrogen

tues
17ml trace
10ml excell
8ml iron

wed
12ml pottasium
10ml excell
8ml iron

thurs
17ml trace
10ml excell
8ml iron
4ml nitrogen
4ml phosphate

fri
12ml pottasium
10ml excell
8ml iron

sat
6ml flourish comp
10 ml excell
8ml iron

sun waterchange of 15-30 gallons

I looked up this deficiency in a book I have on aquatic plants and it said it was probably calcium so I started today to dose 5 ml of kent marine liquid calcium a week, this does say it is for marine but does not say no to use on freshwater and was recomended to dose calcium for inverts once a month or so in freshwater..

I was also thinking maybe I need more flourish comp than I am using..

ingredients on bottly say its deionized water and calcium chloride
is this the kind of calcium that is used in other forms of ferts?

what do you think this deficieny is and what would you do to remody it?

where can i find more in depth information on dosing for a method other than EI specifically flourish's line?

here are some pics


75 gal "Buddha's heady hangout" and 5.5 gal "Hit it long, but let it go short"


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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 03:42 AM
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Your substrate is not a nutrient rich substrate - Eco Complete is not rich in primary nutrients. If you have any fish at all in that tank you can't possibly be dissolving as much CO2 as possible in the water - all of the fish would die long before then. A good way to start with CO2 is to use a drop checker, with 4 dKH water (distilled water with just enough bicarbonate of soda in it to get the KH up to 4 dKH) and 2-3 drops of API pH reagent in it. If that solution turns green to greenish yellow, you are close to getting as much CO2 in the water as the fish can live with. You can very slowly edge it higher, a little bit each day, until you notice some fish clustering at the surface, "gulping air". That is the concentration that is a bit too much. If you keep the surface water rippling all the time, you get more oxygen into the water too, which helps the fish to live with CO2 in the water much better.

EI dosing means to keep enough of all of the nutrients available to the plants at all times, consistent with the plant growth rate that the light intensity is driving. This means you will probably dose a bit too much, so doing big water changes regularly gets rid of that excess before it can get high enough to do any harm. No other method of dosing will work as well, short of doing heavy testing and constantly trying to keep each nutrient within some arbitrary concentration limits. If you find doing regular big water changes is a problem, just reduce the fertilizer dosages, until you notice problems with the plants, then increase them slightly, and water changes can be stretched out much farther.

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 03:47 AM
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I would atleast double your Trace dose, that's definitely what it looks like to me..

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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 04:20 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
Your substrate is not a nutrient rich substrate - Eco Complete is not rich in primary nutrients. If you have any fish at all in that tank you can't possibly be dissolving as much CO2 as possible in the water - all of the fish would die long before then. A good way to start with CO2 is to use a drop checker, with 4 dKH water (distilled water with just enough bicarbonate of soda in it to get the KH up to 4 dKH) and 2-3 drops of API pH reagent in it. If that solution turns green to greenish yellow, you are close to getting as much CO2 in the water as the fish can live with. You can very slowly edge it higher, a little bit each day, until you notice some fish clustering at the surface, "gulping air". That is the concentration that is a bit too much. If you keep the surface water rippling all the time, you get more oxygen into the water too, which helps the fish to live with CO2 in the water much better.
my substrate at most has 40 lbs of eco complete, and at least 120lbs of flourish, but I think its 135 lbs of flourish, which is nutrient rich, and the eco is only the top layer in the back with a ton of flourish under it...

correct me if I am wrong about flourish being a nutrient rich substrate


secondly I said I have the max my system can get disolved into my water.. not the maximum that can be disolved into water, if I turn my co2 up, although it does get the fish up at the surface gulping for air, it builds up alot of excess that it cannot disolve, as I have a poolfilter style reactor, the top half of it fills with air, and then it starts shooting out my output from my filter causing it to waste co2,

the reactor I have does not allow any co2 to come out undisolved unless turned up farther than it should be, so I have it turned up as far as I can for the reactor to work as intended, I can juice it but it would a big waste and possible mess up the reactor as it has a built in powehead on bottom of it to add current to disolve co2, adding even 1/2 BPS add too much to reactor causing buildup and also has all fish pale and breathing abnormally, so it have it exactly where should be..





I am not interested in EI, I have a ton of flourish and intend on just using that and supplimenting if needed, I may look into another line of ferts later on in the future when I feel I have a better understanding of them, however I do no really like that EI keep you system just overfull of nutrients to be solved with large water changes, I would rather give them more specifically what they need... and not have a bunch of excess nutrients in the tank..

75 gal "Buddha's heady hangout" and 5.5 gal "Hit it long, but let it go short"


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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 05:02 AM
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Flourite is not a nutrient rich substrate. It is inert. It does have a high CEC which helps the plant roots find the nutrients from the water that diffuse into the substrate.

I'm not sure how much light you have, all of the Coralife lights seem to have poor reflectors, so you may have low enough light that heavy fertilizing isn't needed anyway. Maybe after the plants get settled in better, and adjusted to your light level, the apparent deficiency will disappear.

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 05:34 AM Thread Starter
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I dont agree with that
speaking from experience I went from a inert gravel to flourish when I changed setups, I also used less light and less co2, but the flourish brought out way deeper reds in my red melon sword as well as my ludwigia repens and that was from day one.

I didnt even dose that tank once the first 2 weeks and the plants grew like they were on roids, and even then I kept my dosing at less than half of what is recomended by seachem


this is straight from their website


Aluminum
10210
Barium
124
Calcium
195
Cobalt
6
Chromium
13
Copper
17
Iron
18500
Potassium
2195
Magnesium
2281
Manganese
64
Sodium
223
Nickel
12
Vanadium
15
Zinc
29
Units=mg/kg, source: Plasma Emission Spectrometer, EPA Method 6010, Univ. of Georgia Chemical Analysis Lab

Flourite® is a specially fracted, stable porous clay gravel for the natural planted aquarium. Its appearance is best suited to planted aquaria, but may be used in any aquarium environment. Flourite® is most effective when used alone as an integral substrate bed, but it may be mixed with other gravels. Gravel modifiers such as laterite are not necessary and unlike competing products, Flourite® never has to be replaced. It remains effective for the life of the aquarium. Flourite® is not chemically coated or treated and will not alter the pH of the water.
Although pre-washed, it may be rinsed before use to remove residual dust. Dust can also be minimized by filling aquarium slowly and dispersing water so that the Flourite® bed is not disturbed. Slight initial cloudiness is normal and will clear rapidly (2–12 hours). To shorten the cloudiness period use Clarity™ in conjuction with mechanical filtration (such as filter floss).

Sizes: 7 kg
Compare Flourite® to our other plant substrates


Gravel Calculator
Wondering how many bags you will need for your project? It's easy to figure out with this gravel calculator. Just enter the length and width of your aquarium along with the desired depth of the substrate and click calculate. Note: The calculator will always round up. For example, you can't pruchase 1.3 bags, so it will return 2 bags.

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75 gal "Buddha's heady hangout" and 5.5 gal "Hit it long, but let it go short"


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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 05:41 AM Thread Starter
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and I have 318 watts over it.

those are t-5 non high output in the middle, which per watt are accually more effecient than t-5 HO they just have alot lower wattage...

in front and in back of them are 65w 24" lights, four of em all together...






75 gal "Buddha's heady hangout" and 5.5 gal "Hit it long, but let it go short"


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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 06:17 AM
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I expect you'll tell me the same, but FWIW I agree with Hoppy- probably not enough CO2.

I happen to like Flourite quite a bit myself, but it's not nearly as nutrient-rich as many other substrates currently on the market, and I usually boost the nutrient content with root tabs and/or soil underneath it.

Just because a nutrient may be contained inside a rock doesn't mean that it's in a form that's bioavailable to plants. Though I do disagree with Hoppy's assessment that Flourite is "inert" in terms of inherent nutrient content, as it does contain some bioavailable nutrients, it's not at all the same in comparison with, say ADA substrate.

All that aside, I'd personally either lower your lighting or figure out a way to improve your CO2 distribution.

And you may like the PPS Pro fert dosing system if you don't like EI. There's always more than one way to skin a cat, especially when it comes to planted tanks... lol





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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 06:41 AM
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For what it is worth, I absolutely agree with Hoppy and Laura, especially on not enough co2 for the amount of light you are running. And I have my own proof to share:

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pl...ml#post1393478

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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kineticcomfort View Post
, adding even 1/2 BPS add too much to reactor causing buildup and also has all fish pale and breathing abnormally, so it have it exactly where should be
read above, CO2 is at max, if turned up at all it gas's my fish
just look at pearling on moss and in fourth pic you can see where all the tiny O2 bubbles are hitting the surface that havent popped yet,

like I said this issue shows up a little with anubias even, not a high demand plant...

what would you consider a high nutrient substate avaiblabe in the US other than ADA or MTS?

75 gal "Buddha's heady hangout" and 5.5 gal "Hit it long, but let it go short"


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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 12:44 PM
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I still say double your trace dose and the wavyness will go away..

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 01:08 PM
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Your dosing is way, way off. You are deficient in all your Macros NPK, especially N. Your also dosing more iron than you need to. Save yourself alot of money and dose dry ferts. I doubt if it's co2, since your also supplementing with Excel daily.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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will start dosing more NPK, since you get nitrogen from fish food and I have tank pretty heavily stocked I was thinking that would sup, also I was told before I had any planted tanks my tank water had high phosphates

so I was not dosing complete N and P, used to dose it at 3-3.5 ml just jumped it up to 4, will try dosing at 5 mls, using seachems dosing chart they recomend 4.5

I have a good $200 worth of seachem ferts I got a good deal on so I will stick with them till at least those are gone...

75 gal "Buddha's heady hangout" and 5.5 gal "Hit it long, but let it go short"


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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 02:15 PM
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If you can't raise the CO2 because the fish's health, reduce your lights. I'd go with ~200 watts at first.

Buy dry ferts when your seachem runs out. It'll save you so much money in the long run.


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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-03-2011, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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I dont have any issue with my lights or co2, I have messed with them for a long time and they are perfect I barely get any algae and its only on wood or glass, and even then it only comes if I have done something to change light or co2 schedule..

I'm sure I could get decent growth with 200 watts but why reduce light when I dont get algae now... also my riccia does not like to grow with anything less than 260 watts

I will try dry ferts in the future at some point, I am going to do alot of research before switching over...
I like the idea of the PPS rather than EI, I am a busy man and do not always have time to do water changes, and althought I know algae is supposed to come from excess light, an unbalanced system (EI) just does not sound right to me... lots of people use it so it must work, but I would rather use what they need and keep it balanced on my own...

I have seen alot of the effect of over fertalizing in hydroponic systems and although its different than submersed growth in an aquarium I still dont like the idea of just adding more than needed then thinking I am solving this issue by a large water chang when I am just goin to go right back to over ferting again...

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