Cant get CO2 levels high enough in tank with overflows w/ sump - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 08:02 AM
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Your attempt to bring up the overall co2 concentration in the large tank with sump, I have a different approach.

First of all, it is probably just me with this idea, it is not tested and don't want to lead to any problem if anyone copy it, so correct me if I am wrong.

I have a 160G display with 20G and 50G sump, the actual water volume is about 200G-220G.
Years ago when I started the CO2, I found it was an impossible task to bring the co2 to 30ppm in every part of the tank.
Since then I adapt a method by using the return pipe pushing a high saturated co2 jet stream at certain angle towards the center of the tank where most of the plants are concentrated. The jet stream creates a high co2 saturated current blow over the plants then slows down, dissipated, and mix with rest of the tank water.

I don't aim to increase the ppm(or bring down the PH) to a certain level in the whole tank, only this jet stream carry high ppm of co2.
Most of the plants are constantly enclosed by high co2 current, (the co2 concentration can be much higher than 30ppm when hitting the plants), as long as most other part of the water body is 30ppm or less, fish have no trouble, they get in and out of the current.

it is difficult to measure the exact co2 concentration in certain points of the current, and the value is dynamic, but don't care....

The benefit is:
Even the CO2 is cheap, but don't need to refill a 15lb co2 tank every month or two, ....

simple chart





similar to spherical light intensity chart


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Last edited by Bettatail; 12-04-2020 at 09:09 AM. Reason: correction
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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Fisher View Post
I had a 20# CO2 cylinder with a Milwaukee regulator, solenoid and needle valve. It fed into a DIY reverse-flow reactor made of PVC that was in-line with one of the pump returns. I was pumping so much CO2 through the system my 20# tank would be empty within a month.



In contrast, a 20# cylinder would last almost 2 years with my heavily-planted 90-gallon sumpless tank.
Hey Mark... do you have any pics of the DIY reverse flow reactor? It would be great if you had pics of the process of the build too. If not, is it a Cerges type reactor and how is it set up? Thanks!

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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SingAlongWithTsing View Post
125 gallon display with 55 gallon sump.
I can drop about 1.2 (8 to 6.8) pH in 2hrs with this design. 1.5 (6.8 to 6.5) drop an hour after that. This is with a single 4.5" x 20" cerges reactor.
20# tanks usually last me between 95~110 days.

I'm also pumping about 95~100 cc/min. CO2 is on it's on separate loop.


most recent iteration of what I'm using:

the cap at the end of the loop is just to catch any co2 bubbles that may have got past both reactors.


I think your issue might be because the aqua medic is too small. I'm just going by quick google images.

At your size of the tank you have to consider the volume of your reactor, more volume = more room for the co2 to mix. It's also important to have a valve near the end of the loop incase you need to increase pressure inside the reactor to crush the co2 some more.
Hey Tsing... I set up a single 4.5" x 20" cerges using the same flow pattern as your first inline Cerges yesterday. In other words, I have the line from my dedicated pump (filter) feeding the reactor through the PVC inserted into the middle of the reactor. The filter I am using is an FX4 so there's plenty of flow. I bled the system of all air before I started adding any CO2 to the reactor. In a nutshell, this design is not working for me. I do not get dissolved CO2 but, rather, very noticeable bubbles coming into my tank.

I think the reasons you are getting such good results with your design are;
1.) The sheer amount of contact time you have between both reactors and
2.) The build up of pressure in the second reactor by having the water having to be forced up and out of the center PVC piece.

Anyways, I am hoping to have time to take mine apart and reverse the in/out and will report back the results.

Pics of present reactor set up included.



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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettatail View Post
Your attempt to bring up the overall co2 concentration in the large tank with sump, I have a different approach.

First of all, it is probably just me with this idea, it is not tested and don't want to lead to any problem if anyone copy it, so correct me if I am wrong.

I have a 160G display with 20G and 50G sump, the actual water volume is about 200G-220G.
Years ago when I started the CO2, I found it was an impossible task to bring the co2 to 30ppm in every part of the tank.
Since then I adapt a method by using the return pipe pushing a high saturated co2 jet stream at certain angle towards the center of the tank where most of the plants are concentrated. The jet stream creates a high co2 saturated current blow over the plants then slows down, dissipated, and mix with rest of the tank water.

I don't aim to increase the ppm(or bring down the PH) to a certain level in the whole tank, only this jet stream carry high ppm of co2.
Most of the plants are constantly enclosed by high co2 current, (the co2 concentration can be much higher than 30ppm when hitting the plants), as long as most other part of the water body is 30ppm or less, fish have no trouble, they get in and out of the current.

it is difficult to measure the exact co2 concentration in certain points of the current, and the value is dynamic, but don't care....

The benefit is:
Even the CO2 is cheap, but don't need to refill a 15lb co2 tank every month or two, ....

simple chart





similar to spherical light intensity chart
Hey @Bettatail - the way you have your inflow designed is how I also have mine. However, I am running mine through a 3/4" RFG (random flow generator). I have attached pics of the RFGs that I had my daughter's boyfriend print for me on his 3D printer. One of them is 3/4" and the other is 1". I am wondering if you would get even better CO2 dispersion in your display with using a RFG? Your thoughts?

Oh, and in something unrelated to this thread; I have a question for you regarding flow meters. Would you mind if I PMed you?

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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReeferRusso View Post
Hey Mark... do you have any pics of the DIY reverse flow reactor? It would be great if you had pics of the process of the build too. If not, is it a Cerges type reactor and how is it set up? Thanks!

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Itís a Rex Griggs reactor: https://rotalabutterfly.com/rex-grigg/diy-reactor.htm
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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 03:08 PM
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If you decide that the reactor approach is not feasible, you may want to try a diffuser approach. I tried this: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9...l#post11087045 for about a year and it worked beautifully. I went back to a reactor only because of a change in plumbing space allowed me to do it and a smaller tank (29 gal) allows easier use of a reactor.

Since the tube diffuser is cheap, it might be worth a try. You could lay just one long line, or multiple lines, to test it first. Perhaps a combination of the tube diffuser and the reactor may get you there.
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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 03:20 PM
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[quote=Mark Fisher;11388107]Itís a Rex Griggs reactor: https://rotalabutterfly.com/rex-grigg/diy-reactor.htm[/quote @Mark Fisher thanks for the reply. I had a feeling you were speaking to a Griggs reactor. Appreciate the link.

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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ReeferRusso View Post

Oh, and in something unrelated to this thread; I have a question for you regarding flow meters. Would you mind if I PMed you?

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anytime,
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-05-2020, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReeferRusso View Post
Hey Tsing... I set up a single 4.5" x 20" cerges using the same flow pattern as your first inline Cerges yesterday. In other words, I have the line from my dedicated pump (filter) feeding the reactor through the PVC inserted into the middle of the reactor. The filter I am using is an FX4 so there's plenty of flow. I bled the system of all air before I started adding any CO2 to the reactor. In a nutshell, this design is not working for me. I do not get dissolved CO2 but, rather, very noticeable bubbles coming into my tank.

I think the reasons you are getting such good results with your design are;
1.) The sheer amount of contact time you have between both reactors and
2.) The build up of pressure in the second reactor by having the water having to be forced up and out of the center PVC piece.

Anyways, I am hoping to have time to take mine apart and reverse the in/out and will report back the results.

Pics of present reactor set up included.



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I was able to get those numbers with a set up in the past with only the first reactor but I did have to crank the ball valve at the end more to increase pressure inside the reactor. then again i have a perrier bottle for my center pipe instead of a pvc pipe like most people and that could of played a bigger role than i thought lol
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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-05-2020, 03:14 AM
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On the subject of co2 distribution I think the laminar/gyre type flows were my favorite although they were hardscape dependent



the gyre pump pushes a nice sheet of water across the surface and then rolls down the opposite side and circles back up. Having the return pipe at the opposite end allows the gyre to distribute the co2 around the tank.

word of warning for anyone with a 125 that's 72" x 18" x 24;" a Jebao SCP-150 maybe too damn strong for the tank even at the lowest setting, at least that's what my experience was.

BRS has some nice videos on gyre flow



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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-05-2020, 03:30 PM
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Another option is to use a needle wheel skimmer pump. Very simple and effective, can handle all the co2 you want to push through it as well.

As you already have said your overflow style is the issue. Herbie or Bean Animal is the ideal style for planted tanks if you can.


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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-05-2020, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidgarden View Post
The problem is I can't get a pH drop greater than pH= 0.9 and rarely a 1.0 pH drop. … I have an AquaMedic 1000 CO2 reactor powered by a Sicce 2.0 pump which is what is what is required for this reactor. I push through 100 cc/min CO2 through the reactor. The CO2 obviously never shuts off all day.
The Aqua medic 1000 was the largest reactor I could find.
If it helps, I also run the AquaMedic 1000 CO2 reactor but on 125 gallon. It has a dedicated pump and a sponge pre filter. I found it necessary to have the reactor filled with the supplied bio balls otherwise the gas escapes before it can dissolve. Here are some of my results,

pump Eheim 1250 (300 gph, 28 W), 1 airstone 24/7, CO2 15 ccm 24/7, 2 inch gas on top, drop checker 5 dKH green-yellow #adff2f colour

pump Eheim 1250 (300 gph, 28 W), 1 airstone 24/7, wave pump Koralia 425 gph, CO2 20 ccm 24/7, 2 inch gas on top, drop checker 5 dKH green-yellow #adff2f colour

pump Eheim 1250 (300 gph, 28 W), 1 airstone 24/7, wave pump Koralia 425 gph, CO2 50 ccm, 6 inch gas on top

pump Eheim 1060 (555 gph, 60 W), 1 airstone 24/7, CO2 15 ccm 24/7, 1 inch gas on top, drop checker 5 dKH green-yellow #adff2f colour, 1.7 pH drop


You have a pump Sicce Syncra 2.0, 550 gph, 32 W which should do the job just fine. I don’t see any other reason why you cannot get more CO2 to dissolve than the reef setup.
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Last edited by Edward; 12-06-2020 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Changed "CO2 50 ccm 24/7" to "CO2 50 ccm"
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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-07-2020, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Edward View Post
drop checker 5 dKH green-yellow #adff2f colour



pump Eheim 1060 (555 gph, 60 W), 1 airstone 24/7, CO2 15 ccm 24/7, 1 inch gas on top, drop checker 5 dKH green-yellow #adff2f colour, 1.7 pH drop
Not related, but I was wondering why the 5dKH vs the 4dKH you see floating around the internet? I don't think it matters much but I'm curious,

Thanks..

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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-07-2020, 05:41 PM
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Hi Quagulator
Why 5 dKH? Because it is what comes from the tap so I donít have to premix anything.

Code:
dKH	pH	CO2 ppm
4	7.0	12
4	6.5	38
4	6.0	120

5	7.0	15
5	6.5	47
5	6.0	150
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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-08-2020, 03:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
If it helps, I also run the AquaMedic 1000 CO2 reactor but on 125 gallon. It has a dedicated pump and a sponge pre filter. I found it necessary to have the reactor filled with the supplied bio balls otherwise the gas escapes before it can dissolve. Here are some of my results,

pump Eheim 1250 (300 gph, 28 W), 1 airstone 24/7, CO2 15 ccm 24/7, 2 inch gas on top, drop checker 5 dKH green-yellow #adff2f colour

pump Eheim 1250 (300 gph, 28 W), 1 airstone 24/7, wave pump Koralia 425 gph, CO2 20 ccm 24/7, 2 inch gas on top, drop checker 5 dKH green-yellow #adff2f colour

pump Eheim 1250 (300 gph, 28 W), 1 airstone 24/7, wave pump Koralia 425 gph, CO2 50 ccm, 6 inch gas on top

pump Eheim 1060 (555 gph, 60 W), 1 airstone 24/7, CO2 15 ccm 24/7, 1 inch gas on top, drop checker 5 dKH green-yellow #adff2f colour, 1.7 pH drop


You have a pump Sicce Syncra 2.0, 550 gph, 32 W which should do the job just fine. I donít see any other reason why you cannot get more CO2 to dissolve than the reef setup.
Hello Edward,
It sounds like I might have too fast of a flow rate going through the aquamedic (525 gallons/hr). Maybe the high flow rate is reducing the contact time the water going through the reactor is in contact with the CO2? Does this sound like something I should try to change?


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