Water change & water conditioner - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-22-2020, 11:03 PM
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100 gallons of 0.3 ppm chlorine is the exact same as 10 gallons of 3 ppm chlorine.

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You do know that fish die at 0.05ppm of chlorine, right?
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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-22-2020, 11:04 PM
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You do know that fish die at 0.05ppm of chlorine, right?
Yep, I also know that it isn't immediate and it has little to do with the discussion at hand.

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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-22-2020, 11:07 PM
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Now given that the rate of reaction for the neutralization is broadly r = k[A][B], the reaction will be approximately 10 slower. Given that the rate of reaction is pretty fast to begin with, this slowing is inconsequential in most cases.

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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-22-2020, 11:11 PM
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No it's not immediate, but within 24 hours is pretty quick...
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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-22-2020, 11:43 PM
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24 hours is pretty quick within the context of a water change? You got bad water pressure?

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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-23-2020, 03:05 AM Thread Starter
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Interesting discussion. I think both of you correct. I get it that chlorine in the new water get distributed in the tank, for example 3ppm of chlorine in 10 gallon of new water get distributed in 100 gallon of old water but the 5ml (for example just for treating the new water) of water conditioner also get distributed in the water & it remain in there for 24 to 48 hours before dissipate. As far as i know water conditioner work pretty quick. So there is no reason to treat the entire tank. Also need to remember we're not just threating chlorine but also ammonia, nitrite & nitrate that may slowly increase in old water. So it is good idea to treat the entire tank. As far as i know if we added like 10ml more of the water conditioner by mistake or intentionally, it won't have any bad effect on flora & fauna in the aquarium.


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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-23-2020, 02:03 PM
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Interesting discussion. I think both of you correct. I get it that chlorine in the new water get distributed in the tank, for example 3ppm of chlorine in 10 gallon of new water get distributed in 100 gallon of old water but the 5ml (for example just for treating the new water) of water conditioner also get distributed in the water & it remain in there for 24 to 48 hours before dissipate. As far as i know water conditioner work pretty quick. So there is no reason to treat the entire tank. Also need to remember we're not just threating chlorine but also ammonia, nitrite & nitrate that may slowly increase in old water. So it is good idea to treat the entire tank. As far as i know if we added like 10ml more of the water conditioner by mistake or intentionally, it won't have any bad effect on flora & fauna in the aquarium.
When I had a 75 gallon heavily planted tank I used a Python to replenish after my water change. I would add the de-chlorinator into the Python stream as the water re-entered the tank. The only time I ever lost any fish was when I was a "bad Dad" and forgot the de-chlorinator for a couple of hours. I ran that tank for 5 years. If you have good flow in your tank you will be fine. In a perfect world you would have a big drum with treated water and use a powerhead to reintroduce the water but few of us have that kind of space. In a big tank it is not too practical to use buckets to add water one by one.

It was kind of you to say that both were correct.
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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-23-2020, 02:28 PM
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You guys have me wanting to do some iodine clock style demos now.

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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-23-2020, 03:23 PM
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I mean, I agree that the stoichiometry isn't different, but I'm not sure it's a matter of the reaction being fast enough and more physics. Even if we have a small amount of chlorine or chloramine in our tank from the tap water we just added, we want those molecules to come into contact with our water conditioner before they come into contact with our livestock/filter bacteria/etc. - those are the side reactions we are trying to avoid. I assumed that treating the entire tank was to make it much more likely they would be neutralized before doing damage by increasing the water conditioner concentration, even though from a numeric perspective it's an unnecessary amount.

Now, if you want to say that a small amount of chlorine toxicity is not a big deal, well, it comes down the to specific circumstances. I don't worry about drops of tap water in my tank at all, but for larger amounts of tap water I think most people don't have enough information to figure out what is safe and it's way easier just to dose the whole tank.
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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-23-2020, 03:40 PM
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I mean, I agree that the stoichiometry isn't different, but I'm not sure it's a matter of the reaction being fast enough and more physics. Even if we have a small amount of chlorine or chloramine in our tank from the tap water we just added, we want those molecules to come into contact with our water conditioner before they come into contact with our livestock/filter bacteria/etc. - those are the side reactions we are trying to avoid. I assumed that treating the entire tank was to make it much more likely they would be neutralized before doing damage by increasing the water conditioner concentration, even though from a numeric perspective it's an unnecessary amount.



Now, if you want to say that a small amount of chlorine toxicity is not a big deal, well, it comes down the to specific circumstances. I don't worry about drops of tap water in my tank at all, but for larger amounts of tap water I think most people don't have enough information to figure out what is safe and it's way easier just to dose the whole tank.
Which is why the language is the way it is on the directions. They are going to err on the side of caution, and are ok with you using more of their product. I am not going to say that using a cautionary excess is absurd, but I think that is different than saying that you must dose based on the total water volume.

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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-23-2020, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bunsen Honeydew View Post
Which is why the language is the way it is on the directions. They are going to err on the side of caution, and are ok with you using more of their product. I am not going to say that using a cautionary excess is absurd, but I think that is different than saying that you must dose based on the total water volume.

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I hear what you are saying, but I think it's impossible to turn into actionable advice that is going to be safe for everyone.

There are major differences in water and the sensitivity of inhabitants that is going to affect what the minimum amount of water conditioner you actually need. My city says the water has about 2 ppm of chlorine and 2 ppm of chloramine and that the EPA says up to 4 ppm of *each* is allowable, so other people probably have more. (Obviously other countries have different rules, YMMV.) So, if you aren't dosing for the full tank size because it's unnecessary, what are you using to determine your dosage? And I assume that might work for you and your system, but how confident can you be that it would work for someone else's tank somewhere else?
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-23-2020, 05:38 PM
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Or for some real fun you can add the new water from the tap while taking the old water out at the same time.
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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-23-2020, 06:11 PM
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I hear what you are saying, but I think it's impossible to turn into actionable advice that is going to be safe for everyone.

There are major differences in water and the sensitivity of inhabitants that is going to affect what the minimum amount of water conditioner you actually need. My city says the water has about 2 ppm of chlorine and 2 ppm of chloramine and that the EPA says up to 4 ppm of *each* is allowable, so other people probably have more.
Having both at the same time would be unusual. Some places switch from chloramine to chlorine periodically to control nitrifying bacteria.

Most dechlorinators have a safety margin where they can dechlorinate much more chlorine than you're likely to ever see in your water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleDee View Post
There are major differences in water and the sensitivity of inhabitants that is going to affect what the minimum amount of water conditioner you actually need. My city says the water has about 2 ppm of chlorine and 2 ppm of chloramine and that the EPA says up to 4 ppm of *each* is allowable, so other people probably have more.
The 4 mg/L limit is an annual average so it could, in theory, be way higher at any given time.
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-23-2020, 06:37 PM
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Having both at the same time would be unusual. Some places switch from chloramine to chlorine periodically to control nitrifying bacteria.

Most dechlorinators have a safety margin where they can dechlorinate much more chlorine than you're likely to ever see in your water.


The 4 mg/L limit is an annual average so it could, in theory, be way higher at any given time.
I don't test for these directly and I have no expertise in this area, I'm just pulling from the water report that explains a three part treatment process that adds chlorine in step one and chloramine in step three and then lists average amounts for both. I guess my city is unusual! Thanks for the info.
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-23-2020, 06:44 PM
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I have always followed the prime directions that if I need to treat 20gs then I add the 2ml however if I add the 20g to the 20g already in the tank then I would dose for 40g total.

That's why I have taken the approach of pre treating tank in another container and temperature matching it

I have killed fish by being dumb and only treating the amount and changed so please learn from my mistake.
Prime is pretty cheap overall compared to the fish being kept and all the investment we've put into our tanks
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