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Mixing EI Solutions

4K views 19 replies 6 participants last post by  ipkiss 
#1 ·
I'm trying to get started with EI dosing... This is my guide: https://www.nilocg.com/dosing-information/ (along with this forum :)). I'm using the table for a 55G and want to premix the solutions in to a pump bottle. That's about all I know for sure.

I'm confused about a few things:

1) since I dose macros and micros on alternate days, do I mix all the macros into 1 bottle? Spoiler, I did my first mix into 1 bottle - but obviously did not get all 500ml of water into the bottle - I added ferts then water to the bottle and they did not all dissolve yet. So in this bottle I added KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 and am using distilled water.

Or, should I have added all 3 of those to their own bottle (or the first 2 in one and K2SO4 in the other)?

The CSM+B seems to have mixed fine - and that's the only thing in that bottle.

2) How much do I dose from each bottle on it's day? The way I read the table is that I would dose 15ml of each bottle on the day it's due. That seems like a lot... I understand the target concentration levels they have listed (ppm), but not how to translate the solution I mix, into a PPM for the tank. I.e. how many PPM does 1ml of that solution contain?

Trying another way - looking at the nilocg page - and taking the table for KNO3 as an example, if I want 1/2 tsp per dose and then mix that into 500ml, then and the dose is 15ml, then I would have 32 doses in a 500ml. But doing that same math for KH2PO4, I get 36 doses and 42 for K2SO4. So I'm missing something.

Any pointers?

Thanks,
Brian
 
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#2 ·
I assume you're following the '15mL Per 55 Gallons' section?

1) You should measure the fertilizers out, then top up water to the 500 mL mark. This will mean that you will likely add less than 500 mL of water, since the fertilizers will displace some water.

If you are following the amounts of fertilizer to add above, they may not necessarily dissolve into 500 mL of water; you are trying to dissolve quite a bit (too concentrated a solution). You will likely have to create a slightly more dilute solution, and then dose more volume to get the same equivalent dose.

You can mix all three macronutrients into one bottle, or have them separated; that's up to you. Of course, mixing them all together in one bottle is more convenient, but you will have to ensure that they can all dissolve.


2) 15 mL into a 55 gallon aquarium is not that much. It all depends on the stock solution strength. If you make a very dilute solution, you might end up having to dose (say) 50 mL.

To figure out how much PPM you have in your stock solution, you can calculate using molarity and molar mass. Alternatively, for any particular chemical species, if you know how much a known concentration will increase a known volume of water by, you can figure it out by using a dilution formula (m1v1 = m2v2).

For your example, the number of doses will be different for each chemical, because different amounts are added into 500 mL. However, if you work out the math properly, you can ensure that 15 mL of a mixed solution will still raise all chemical species by the desired amount
 
#4 ·
If my daily dose of dry ferts is 1/2 tsp... and I put 20 tsps into a bottle. I would want to dose 1/40th of that solution per day?

B-
Yes, this would be correct. Do ensure that you can actually dissolve 20 teaspoons into whatever volume of water you plan to use, however.



You may find out that you need to settle for dosing more volume, as you will reach a point of saturation at some point
 
#9 ·
It takes some math. And it’s quite possible that NilocG instructions don’t allow for total solubility in a solution at room temp for extra K.

Going back to your other post on deficiency and type of plants you’ve got you might not even really need extra K above what KNO3 and KH2PO4 provide, those 2 together hit the basic EI dosing rate of 5.23ppm of K.

When you figure on rotalabutterfly for KNO3 this is result you get which is exactly inline with what NilocG states, 84+gm. Note that this amount KNO3 is hitting N target but also adding 4.73ppm of K as well.



Now do same thing shown above but use KH2PO4 and you’ll see it hits you P target and adds another 1.31ppm of K. Those 2 compounds combined hits basic lowest level of K that tank could possibly need, 5.3ppm. I myself would rather have K Sulfate and not need it or very little of it than not have it.

In your deficiency thread we talk about your apparent Mg deficiency. Did you get some Epsom salt (Mg Sufate) to deal with that? Might be that all you need to do is add some of Mg Sulfate and some of K Sulfate you just got to change water to give a little Mg and K boost each week, you can also take those 2 compounds in their own 1L bottle, mix them up and add a nice splash of it in change water and another splash midweek. I myself think you’ll be AOK adding about 3 part Mg and 1 part K to change water and call it good. The amounts are not as important as maintaining ratios in your water and observing/knowing the symptoms of K or Mg deficiency and taking proper steps once you observe them. Remember Mg will show up on your GH test kit, that’s all it measures, Ca/Mg levels, a TDS meter will show accumulation of all dissolved elements in water.

If you look on that NilocG page there is a list of target ranges that your supposed to hit for EI dosing, you can easily use those to mix up a solution that fits your tanks needs. Those ppm listed are the bottom of EI dosing range, the dosing for nitrates can be anywhere from 7.5ppm to at least 2x higher if not more depending on your tanks uptake rate. There is no black or white in dosing, only grey, dependent on type of plants you have and amount of light and co2 your giving them, but for the most part the ratios of those dozen+ elements plants need don’t fluctuate to much.
 
#10 ·
And don't obsess too much on getting it exactly right.
First step of Estimative Index, is that it is an estimate! So do give some thought to the balance between getting pretty close and enjoying the hobby versus getting the exact amount for an estimate? Your tank, plants, fish and water combo is different than other tanks and we are starting with an estimate of what a "normal" tank with "normal" lighting, fish plants, etc. will like best.
I stopped trying to figure out what normal was!
 
#11 ·
@DaveKS - thanks - I think I'm making steps forward (in understanding this)...

The calc tells me how to mix the solution so I can get a specific PPM (7.5 of NO3 in this case). Then it also tells me how much K (and N) I get from that in PPM. But how do I find out how much K (for example) I need overall? Ack - that you're saying that I will likely have enough without K2SO4 (now what do I do with the K2SO4 I bought ;)) just want to see if I can follow this all the way through.

The one thing I don't understand is the graph at the bottom Rotola cald... why is there such a huge range of PPM for EI in the graph when above it tells me exactly what I need?



re: the other thread, I did add some Mg/Epsom salt and some K2SO4 while I was waiting to figure out the EI stuff - and it did seem to help, I saw less detioration in the anubis but the java fern didn't seem to change much... I also had an anubis bloom, not great, but still...

And then I also decided I wanted to do a reset on some of the plants I had in the tank. I had a few fast growing plants and that seem to be non-stop trimming and perhaps causing some of the imbalance, so I removed those and hopefully just have things that grow at a similar pace. I know that might be a shock to the tank but new ferts and new plants all at once will ideally be a faster way to what @PlantedRich is hinting at.

So now I'm just doing the macros/micros (no more extra Mg), and will probably post another pic in a few weeks here. I'm trying to figure out the dose that I can use with a every other week WC, and seeing some GDA on the glass so far. I also noticed less pearling in the plants since the reset and new ferts - not sure why.
@PlantedRich - yes I laughed out loud when I read this:

>>> So do give some thought to the balance between getting pretty close and enjoying the hobby...

I seemed to keep crossing line after line... first live plants then ferts then CO2 then DYI ferts. I keep thinking there is a point here where I'll have this figured out and then on cruise control, so yes that's the goal. Hopefully you can share from experience that it's attainable in some fashion :wink2:
 
#12 ·
Yes, I found it was attainable but at some expense to my self image! I got close to what I wanted for a number of years and then as it became more work, I thought to let it slide to the point that was also not fun. I wobbled left, wobbled right, sold it all and got a motorhome!
BAH! Now I'm caught again as it is not safe nor logical to go out running around the country, so we go thirty miles out to a local lake and set watching the sunset! I can keep my habits fed to a certain level just running through the woods collecting a few bits and pieces of wood to turn on the local market as it feels right, or it can all set out beside the house until the mood strikes which is NOT what I want to do with a tank to maintain!
 
#13 ·
Go back to that NilocG page and note section about target concentration levels for EI dosing.

That graph at bottom shows how broad the EI dosing range actually is, some people with good light and co2 and dense plantings of super needy plants will use higher amounts. Until you cross past that higher end of EI dosing range you won’t experience nutrient toxicity as long as your keeping ratios up.

The amounts listed on that NilocG page are the lowest amounts that will put you in EI dosing range, you’ll need to dose those amounts 2-4x a week. Your tank and plant choices probably won’t need much more than basic low end EI dosing and adding some Mg and maybe extra K on water change. Monitor your nitrate and phosphate and under EI style dosing you should see those levels slightly rising throughout the week and then you change water to flush excess accumulations from tank and reset levels. If you see levels dropping you need to dose more, you can either increase amount your dosing or increase number of times you dose per week. The only unknown is usually change water source chemistry variables, fish load/maintenance/cleaning routines, plant types and planting density.
 
#14 ·
@DaveKS / @PlantedRich - thanks for hanging with me here... The latest.

Ok, I'm about a month into my attempt at EI dosing... Attached are some recent pics to see what's happening (it's not improving :p). Here's what I think are the relevant bits - note that I'm trying to be more scientific and less ad hoc.


  1. to level set, I removed the fast growing plants from the tank (I was trimming them a lot, weekly and they just took over the tank)
  2. I mixed my first round of solutions based on the nilocg page using the 55G table. I have a 65G tank (w/ CO2) and dose at 12ml with a WC every 2 weeks (not every week)
  3. the micros solution I mixed has accumulated some "solids" in the bottle, looks a bit like algae but it's floating in the solution - not sure how to describe it, but it was a transparent brownish-green when first mixed, but now has this stuff floating in it
  4. BBA has started to take hold again, I had this largely under control before switching to EI and you can see from the pics it's getting worse
  5. pearling - the plants don't pearl anymore, they used to but not for a few weeks. The BBA pearls just fine :p
  6. leaves (on the anubis) are still showing dark green spots, amazon sword leaves are melting
  7. reminder that in my first round of mixing I did add the extra K2SO4 (so this may be one thing to change)

I'm ready to dump my solutions that I mixed (macros because of K2SO4 and micros because of the stuff growing in it), but wanted to get some advice before mixing the next round... Here's what I'm thinking from reading the thread and observing:

  • remix the macros and don't add the K2SO4 this time...
  • put together another solution with Mg and K2SO4 (or not), use this only at WC time (or once/week) - though not sure how much Mg and K2SO4 I should add to this solution and how much to dose
  • rotala is telling me I need 0.2ppm of Fe, but NicolG says I should be shooting for a concentration of 0.5ppm for EI - any idea why those are different?

Please help :p
 

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#15 ·
I'm not one to figure the amounts too closely as my first thought is that the number comes from an estimate of what a "normal" tank may need, so an estimate is not something to try to get exact.
So the difference in Rotala and Colin's advise may appear to be "off" but they are both an estimate, so that leaves both to be right potentially, but also open to change if we see something that says more or less might work better.
Part of the whole has to involve what we each have in our water and that will vary. One of my big ger problems was that it seemed no matter what amount of nitrate I added or tested, it looked like I needed more as my plants were not green. So there are times when having the nutrient there and the plant being able to use it are two different things. I had the nitrate in the tank but I have extreme Ca which was not allowing the plants to use it until I added more MG and iron!
And that whole idea has lead me to do ferts a bit different than some as I don't want to mix a whole jug of ferts, only to find I want to change up the amounts in a few weeks. Also I find the ferts store better when dry! I stay flexible by just having a base idea of how much of what to add on the days I do mine, then if I find things are changing, I may bump one single item up a small amount or totally drop one.
There is no magic formula to meet every tank and some of mine required more and some none, so my small amounts often were just as seemingly random as adding a pinch on alternating days, etc.
One point that some mention is getting it all "dialed in", like they finally find the perfect answers and can go with that for the end of that tank. I find that there are always changes in anything that grows as fast as out tank plants. If it is not some plant dying, it is one growing too fast and shading the small ones.
Check with any farmer and you will find it is a constant struggle to try to figure out how many ferts and what type to use on each field.
So I don't work for perfect, just settle for fun and enjoyable!
 
#16 ·
12ml every 2 week isn’t going to work, you should be dosing at a minimum 15ml 1-2x every week and changing 50% water every week.

If you want to do low range dosing you need to do it more often and on a regular schedule. Dosing pump should be in your future or your going to continue to fail. Low range dosing and only changing water every 2wk you are going to have to zero in on low daily dosing. Zero in on what your plants need every day or every other day with almost zero accumulation. Your tank is going to have to be automated on dosing and top off. You need to flatline your levels, you can’t do that if your not there to manually dose on a reg schedule —> dosing pump, at least a 3 channel for macro, micro, evaporation dosing.

What your doing currently some of your nutrient levels are bottoming out even before 1st week is up. If your going to continue down this path boost your P, K and micro dosing to front load them and hope your tanks natural biological ammonium/ammonia production will keep N from going into nitrogen depletion. For sure from pics you posted I would suspect your phosphate are on a rollercoaster ride of slightly to much to going into complete depletion before 2wk are up. Phosphate slightly high for a few days, not that bad, phosphate bottoming out for 5-7 days at a time, bad juju. Phosphate bottoms out and plant growth stalls and spot algae your seeing comes forward.

Seriously, your so close, even training wife/spouse to pour 1 gal of water in tank that you’ve pre-dosed at wk1 between your wk2 water changes/attention would make a huge difference. That last week where some of your levels are bottoming out is what is causing the spot algae flare ups. I call it feast or famine dosing. One thing plants or even your bacteria bio-bed/colony or fauna don’t like is constant fluctuations in levels.
 
#18 ·
Ok, I'm in my "second phase" of trying to nail down EI dosing. @PlantedRich is going to roll eyes here (as you can see I'm still struggling with OCD).

Some background on the latest.

- 65G Tanks with a Fluval 3.0 Light for 9 hours a day with CO2 injection
- EI Dosing, trying to work in a W/C every 2 weeks instead of weekly
- I've thinned the plans some, I had some faster growing plants that were taking over the tank
- I've been consistent with the dosing for the 4-6 weeks - @moke / @DaveKS - I think I've figured out rotala.

What I'm seeing now is consistent and from my novice evaluation of symptoms:
  • BBA easily takes hold on the Anubis and the other slower growing foreground plant (I've had it for so long I forgot what it is, it's in the center)
  • The plants with BBA are growing pretty quickly, I'll eventually prune leaves that get overrun, and new leaves keep coming. I'm also seeing regular blooming of the Anubis in the same time period but those eventually succumb to BBA and never really develop a white color (they stay green)
  • the new leaves of the Anubis are wavy at the edges and tips curled.
  • The healthly leaves on the foreground plants have dark green spots on them, afaiki it's not algae (I've tried rubbing it off)
  • old growth on the Java Fern and Amazon sword shows holes in leaves or they "melt" away.
  • my nitrates went through the roof, I stopped regular testing for nitrates a long time ago when they stabilized with all-in-one fertilization but then when I started EI dosing that seems to have changed... So I stopped dosing KNO3 and that got them under control, though now I think they're too low @ 20ppm. And may be why the BBA is coming back so strongly. Also, I think this seems to have dropped K as well even though I add (some) K2SO4
  • phosphates are > 10ppm which is as high as my test kit goes - thinking back over the years, I've always had high phosphates (I think due to the water supply)
Now when I'm trying to understand the deficiency, it sounds like there's often 1 nutrient to diagnose, because when that 1 is missing plants will stop growing or advancing beyond that problem. That helps simplify it for me if it's true ;) From the symptom of leaves melting away, it sounds like that is a K deficiency. Though the other symptoms I see (particularly the BBA, curly leaves), not sure what that's from aside from maybe the high phosphates.

So if I were to try to adjust dosing for this, I would increase N, remove P and increase K (after adjusting for the K in KNO3).

Thoughts?
 

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#19 ·
Wrong! No eyerolls from me as I found a long time ago that getting it right and keeping it right is just not going to happen if I turn my head!
I find things are a constant job to keep it adjusted if I want to improve it. I fully admit that part of my feeling of "success" is not so much that my tanks are that great but more lean toward adjusting my expectations, at times. I have too many real and bigger problems to concern me than whether my tanks are as great as they could be!!!!
I've modified my expectations to fit somewhere along the lines of being happen with a certain amount of pride thrown in that I still have things alive----so no eye rolls, please.
Nitrate is one of the things we call mobile, so looking at new leaves versus old leaves can be a clue. If you have new leaves coming on while older leaves are losing color and getting "see-through" , I pump the nitrate up on the idea that the mobile nutrients are being drawn back from the older leaf tips to be used in new leaf formation.
I tend to let nitrate go quite a bit higher than I often read about but it seems not to bother my African cichlids and breeding while being short does give me obvious signs of pale leaves, etc.
 
#20 ·
I think you're running too much light for your plants. 9 hours? on full blast? Hopefully, you're at least on fluval's daily cycle that does the peak light of only a few hours. I suspect you're OCD'ing too much on dosing when you should be looking at how to optimize your light/co2 balance. While it is true that some can pump that kind of light onto slow growers, most don't and definitely not while they're trying to figure out other stuff. As you have the luxury of using less light, why not lessen it (both in intensity and duration or one at first) and see if your BBA situation improves a little or not. You may find things a little easier to balance as you're not driving your plants so hard too.

I could go on about light/co2/nutrient theory, but it'll just be retreading what is much better presented here if you haven't went through this site already. Pay special attention to light control.
https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/beginners-planted-tank-101/prevent-algae-growth
Too much unnecessary light just ends up stressing a plant to do worse -- which brings on algae.

Then, try your hardest to ocd on how to deliver as much co2 as you safely can because more than likely, you're not delivering enough. Whether its flow/agitation/dissolution problems, rethink all of it.
https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/choosing-co2-why/how-to-push-the-limits-of-co2-safely

Then, poke around the rest of that site to see what else helps you to think through your tanks problems.

May also have to suck it up and commit to weekly water changes until you see some positive development at least. If you're insisting on 2 week water changes for good reason, I hope you're at least accounting for that into your EI calculations as most non custom instructions are set for weekly. As such, if you go 2 weeks, you're doubling the accumulation.
 
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