Predicting pH - The Planted Tank Forum
 2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 05:42 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (18/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 2,051
Predicting pH

Is there a way to predict pH, given KH and GH?

For instance, I'm adding Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ and baking soda to DI water to reach a target of 6 dGH, 5 dKH. Those numbers are within parameters for snails, yet there's a good deal of shell erosion lately.

Snail Glades,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Rainer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 06:01 AM
Planted Member
 
pauld738's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Modesto
Posts: 292
Depending on the snails 6dGh might be a tad low.

With a Kh of 5 your pH shouldn't be anywhere near low enough to cause erosion. Although shell issues are usually a Gh issue.

For reference I'm running ramshorn's in 6-7dGh, 1dKh without issue (their breeding) but ramshorn snails handle lower Gh better than most snails.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
pauld738 is online now  
post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 10:37 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (18/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 2,051
Most are various nerite species; there are also a chopstick and a golden mystery snail. All are affected to one extent or another. The supplier doesn't even list GH values, just KH.

Snail Glades,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Rainer is offline  
 
post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 10:48 AM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Canada
Posts: 75
Do you have CO2 injection?
Tuister is offline  
post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (18/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 2,051
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuister View Post
Do you have CO2 injection?
No, strictly the remineralization and daily fert dosage, the latter of which we can ignore for the purposes of this discussion.

Snail Glades,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Rainer is offline  
post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 10:59 AM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Canada
Posts: 75
Hi @Rainer,

Sorry, I am not sure then - good luck with this.

Josh
Tuister is offline  
post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 03:22 PM
Planted Member
 
pauld738's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Modesto
Posts: 292
Most suppliers are thoroughly confused about kh/gh.

Nerites need more gh. Bump it up to atleast 8, but probably need more like 10 or greater, and see what happens. Nerites can handle gh in the upper 20's

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
pauld738 is online now  
post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-01-2020, 08:22 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 602
You can't define ph by gh/kh alone. You must first measure the ph. Then, you can estimate what the CHANGE IN ph will be after adding gh/kh.

Ph itself is a base, or central measurement in the first place if that makes sense. It is the measure of alkalinity or acidity which changes depending on more factors than just gh/kh. Gh/kh are secondary measurements at best.
Ddrizzle is online now  
post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-02-2020, 03:24 AM
Planted Member
 
pauld738's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Modesto
Posts: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ddrizzle View Post
You can't define ph by gh/kh alone. You must first measure the ph. Then, you can estimate what the CHANGE IN ph will be after adding gh/kh.

Ph itself is a base, or central measurement in the first place if that makes sense. It is the measure of alkalinity or acidity which changes depending on more factors than just gh/kh. Gh/kh are secondary measurements at best.
I'd argue that kh/gh are primary measurements and pH is a secondary measurement.

Focusing on pH measurement alone nets you nothing. Knowing your kh/ gh values, your base, then allows you to understand better what the pH measurement is saying.

Maybe it's just semantics though.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
pauld738 is online now  
post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-04-2020, 06:01 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
DaveKS's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 67212
Posts: 2,271
Iíll float these by you as food for thought. Maybe itís not Ca, Mg or even Fe your short on and might be the cause of the erosion your seeing not the actual PH.



DaveKS is online now  
post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-04-2020, 07:13 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauld738 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ddrizzle View Post
You can't define ph by gh/kh alone. You must first measure the ph. Then, you can estimate what the CHANGE IN ph will be after adding gh/kh.

Ph itself is a base, or central measurement in the first place if that makes sense. It is the measure of alkalinity or acidity which changes depending on more factors than just gh/kh. Gh/kh are secondary measurements at best.
I'd argue that kh/gh are primary measurements and pH is a secondary measurement.

Focusing on pH measurement alone nets you nothing. Knowing your kh/ gh values, your base, then allows you to understand better what the pH measurement is saying.

Maybe it's just semantics though.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
I think you're correct for aquariums. I meant it more in the general chemistry sense.
pauld738 likes this.
Ddrizzle is online now  
post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-05-2020, 02:22 PM
Planted Member
 
pauld738's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Modesto
Posts: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKS View Post
Iíll float these by you as food for thought. Maybe itís not Ca, Mg or even Fe your short on and might be the cause of the erosion your seeing not the actual PH.







Just for clarity, were you saying maybe it is Ca, Mg or even iron? Or its not?

The way I read that diagram is that it's probably a Ca issue

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
pauld738 is online now  
post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-07-2020, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (18/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 2,051
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauld738 View Post
Just for clarity, were you saying maybe it is Ca, Mg or even iron? Or its not?

The way I read that diagram is that it's probably a Ca issue
Calcium is ~18% and magnesium is ~7% of the Salty Shrimp added weekly, total volume 1-2 gallons, while Fe is added via Flourish Comp 6x/week diluted at 2.25 mL/48 oz dosed 2.2 mL. I've changed the fresh food to spinach from romaine for extra calcium in addition to the veggie flakes already being fed. Any idea how much calcium a dozen snails and 50+ shrimp would need?


Quote:
Originally Posted by pauld738 View Post
Nerites need more gh. Bump it up to atleast 8, but probably need more like 10 or greater, and see what happens. Nerites can handle gh in the upper 20's
What would be the best way to increase GH and Ca without increasing KH? I'm already seeing stunting issues, possibly related to KH or GH values, in the Val nanas and I'm hoping to add a relatively rare snail species which nominally has a KH range of 2-6.

Also, I have three species of shrimp which may be affected by more than a small increase in GH/KH: bloody mary neos, green babaulti, and OEBT (well, they started out that way; the offspring also include blond, tangerine, and possibly green tigers too).

Snail Glades,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Rainer is offline  
post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-08-2020, 01:40 AM
Planted Member
 
pauld738's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Modesto
Posts: 292
Salty Shrimp Gh+ will do the trick. If course so will Equilibrium and Nilocg makes a Gh booster as well. Or you could get your own dry Ca and Mg and mix your own (that's what I do, ~2:1 ratio).

Those all will raise gh without affecting kh.

Just go slow. Since you have shrimp, 1 dGh increase every week. The Blue tigers will be hardest to deal with. I don't have any personal experience with them but have seen 10 dGh as doable.

But see what 8dGh does for you first. That may do the trick? Although nerites really do like harder water.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
Rainer likes this.
pauld738 is online now  
post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-08-2020, 06:06 AM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
butchblack's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Waltham, Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauld738 View Post
I'd argue that kh/gh are primary measurements and pH is a secondary measurement.

Focusing on pH measurement alone nets you nothing. Knowing your kh/ gh values, your base, then allows you to understand better what the pH measurement is saying.

Maybe it's just semantics though.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
Not necessarily. You can have a ph level at different gh/kh levels. My tap water recently changed from 7.2-9.2 but my alkalinity stayed around 40 ppm.

The real fountain of youth is being a musician
butchblack is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome