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post #16 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-27-2020, 08:39 PM
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2 Finnex 24/7's. On a 20 gallon. Did I read that right?

If so, that's way too much light for right now. Quagulatar has some great stuff in his post but I would even go lower on the light till algae is at bay. 3 hours max of highest intensity. Maybe even incorporate a day with lights off. If you are impatient with removing algae growth.
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post #17 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-27-2020, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
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Reduce light intensity if possible.
I just increased the light because the alternanthera was struggling. More light seems to have helped them begin to grow again. Don't darker plants need more light to photosynthensize? Or are you saying to do this to combat the algae? Shouldn't I wait until the alternanthera is more established? I'm worried less light will result in die off.


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Reduce photoperiod to 5 hours per day max (until algae has subsided, then slowly increase back up to 8 hours per day over a few weeks)
.


Most of my plants are from South America (I think), which gets 12+ hours of sun per day. Also, the company I bought the plants from said they have lights on for 12 hours. What is the logic behind 8 hours, and wouldn't I need to cut back on my ferts and CO2 if cutting back this much on light?


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Ensure you are providing adequate nutrients for the plants (unhealthy plants promote algae).
I'm EI dosing and following the recommended amounts.


Quote:
Dose Flourish Excel or equivalent Met14 at the “after water change” rate on the Excel bottle once per day.
Does Excel even though I have CO2 injection???


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Manually remove all algae you can.
Roger that.



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Manually remove excess organics in the tank by gravel vacuuming and cleaning filter media in old tank water every water change.
I have been.


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Manually remove any decaying or dead plant matter.
Check


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Increase water change frequency, and the amount of water changed.
This will screw up my EI dosing regime, so once a week is how often I change water.


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Consider spot treating badly affected areas or dipping plants / hardscape in a Flourish Excel, Met14 or H2O2 + water solution. Google search which method you think would work well, and for general ratios to mix a safe solution. Certain plants can’t tolerate these chemicals, so ensure you do a little research prior to dipping / spot treating plants.
I think I'd rather clip off the top few inches of the plants and replant the stems for a while until the algae hopefully goes away. Thoughts on this approach?



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If using CO2, ensure CO2 is dropping the pH of the tank water a full 1.0 – 1.2. To do this, measure the pH of tank water with no CO2 dissolved in it, and then measure again 2-3 hours after CO2 has been running. Ensure the drop in pH is a full 1.0-1.2. If the drop is not there yet, slowly up CO2 over a few weeks until at least a 1.0 drop is achieved, and watch fish / livestock carefully. Adjust CO2 down if you notice fish gasping at the surface and consider running an airstone at night when pushing a 1.2 or greater drop. For example, a tank water pH of 7.5 with no CO2 dissolved in it, should reach a pH of 6.5 – 6.3 for CO2 to really shine, and for maximum plant health.

I measured last night after the CO2 had been off for about 6 hours and lights were off, and the pH was 7.4. Just measured now with CO2 and lights on and got 6.9, so I bumped up the injection to 6 bps. I only have Amanos in the tank.


Quote:
Consistency in CO2 levels is key to plant health. Keep CO2 levels as stable as possible once a desirable level has been reached.

I'm confused (obviously), but if the goal is to regulate CO2 levels, then why is any kind of pH drop (indicative of changing CO2 levels) a good thing?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauld738 View Post
2 Finnex 24/7's. On a 20 gallon. Did I read that right?

If so, that's way too much light for right now. Quagulatar has some great stuff in his post but I would even go lower on the light till algae is at bay. 3 hours max of highest intensity. Maybe even incorporate a day with lights off. If you are impatient with removing algae growth.

Okay. I originally had one running in 24/7 mode (sunrise to sunset with moonlight) and the second one at full intensity for 3 or 4 hours in the middle of the day until recently (when I noticed the red plants struggling). I'm afraid the red plants are going to die off if I cut the light back.


It's a 20 high, if the few inches of height makes a difference.

Figured I'd mention that I've had absolutely no luck growing Anubias in any of my low tech tanks (the 20 gallon is my only high tech tank at the moment). This is discouraging because they say it's a beginner plant. Mine don't grow at all, get covered in algae, and die. Amazon swords also struggle in one of my low tech tanks, yet Vallesneria grows like a weed.

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post #18 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-27-2020, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mossman77 View Post
I just increased the light because the alternanthera was struggling. More light seems to have helped them begin to grow again. Don't darker plants need more light to photosynthensize? Or are you saying to do this to combat the algae? Shouldn't I wait until the alternanthera is more established? I'm worried less light will result in die off.
Plants can get through period of less light. Lighting is arguably the main factor in algae growth.


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Originally Posted by mossman77 View Post
Most of my plants are from South America (I think), which gets 12+ hours of sun per day. Also, the company I bought the plants from said they have lights on for 12 hours. What is the logic behind 8 hours, and wouldn't I need to cut back on my ferts and CO2 if cutting back this much on light?
Most of my ancestors are from Europe, and yet I live healthy and happily in Canada. 5 hours max per day of light to battle algae. Yes, you will need to adjust CO2 to coincide with the photoperiod. The logic is that 8 hours of light on an established tank is enough to allow plants to thrive, but not too much for algae.



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Originally Posted by mossman77 View Post
I'm EI dosing and following the recommended amounts.
That's probably fine dosing wise, I've never had much luck with AR dosing EI.

You might want to look into DTPA Iron instead of the iron found in CSM+B given your pH.



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Originally Posted by mossman77 View Post
Does Excel even though I have CO2 injection???
Seachem Excel is not a carbon source, it is not CO2 and it is not a CO2 replacement. Aquarium product manufactures are masters at marketing, and mislead the buyer with many products.
Excel is a mild algaecide that allows users to run slightly higher light with a reduced risk of an algae outbreak. It may or may not help break down protein films growing on plant tissue, allowing plants better access to atmospheric CO2 naturally occurring in the water.

Excel can be used to spot treat, and create plant dips to help control algae.
Excel should be used as an algaecide, not a carbon or CO2 source / supplement.





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Originally Posted by mossman77 View Post
This will screw up my EI dosing regime, so once a week is how often I change water.
You can work around the EI dosing regime. Take what you dose after your normal water change, and dose it after your new water changes. Dose micro's as normal.




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Originally Posted by mossman77 View Post
I think I'd rather clip off the top few inches of the plants and replant the stems for a while until the algae hopefully goes away. Thoughts on this approach?
That's fine, spot treating is only a tool in the tool box, use it if you wish or don't use it.



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Originally Posted by mossman77 View Post
I'm confused (obviously), but if the goal is to regulate CO2 levels, then why is any kind of pH drop (indicative of changing CO2 levels) a good thing?
Sorry, should have said "consistency throughout the entire photoperiod is key" as plants do not use CO2 when the lights are off.


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Originally Posted by mossman77 View Post
Okay. I originally had one running in 24/7 mode (sunrise to sunset with moonlight) and the second one at full intensity for 3 or 4 hours in the middle of the day until recently (when I noticed the red plants struggling). I'm afraid the red plants are going to die off if I cut the light back.
They won't die, they might lose some red colour, but if you want to algae gone, you'll have to reduce the intensity and the length of time the lights are on. The red will come right back once you've got the algae under control and can slowly begin turning the lights back up.

Also, I would just run the lights as on vs off at a certain % power, and no ramp-up or ramp-down. Some moon lights are fine if you like that look.
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post #19 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-27-2020, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Quagulator View Post
Plants can get through period of less light. Lighting is arguably the main factor in algae growth.




Most of my ancestors are from Europe, and yet I live healthy and happily in Canada. 5 hours max per day of light to battle algae. Yes, you will need to adjust CO2 to coincide with the photoperiod. The logic is that 8 hours of light on an established tank is enough to allow plants to thrive, but not too much for algae.





That's probably fine dosing wise, I've never had much luck with AR dosing EI.

You might want to look into DTPA Iron instead of the iron found in CSM+B given your pH.





Seachem Excel is not a carbon source, it is not CO2 and it is not a CO2 replacement. Aquarium product manufactures are masters at marketing, and mislead the buyer with many products.
Excel is a mild algaecide that allows users to run slightly higher light with a reduced risk of an algae outbreak. It may or may not help break down protein films growing on plant tissue, allowing plants better access to atmospheric CO2 naturally occurring in the water.

Excel can be used to spot treat, and create plant dips to help control algae.
Excel should be used as an algaecide, not a carbon or CO2 source / supplement.







You can work around the EI dosing regime. Take what you dose after your normal water change, and dose it after your new water changes. Dose micro's as normal.






That's fine, spot treating is only a tool in the tool box, use it if you wish or don't use it.





Sorry, should have said "consistency throughout the entire photoperiod is key" as plants do not use CO2 when the lights are off.




They won't die, they might lose some red colour, but if you want to algae gone, you'll have to reduce the intensity and the length of time the lights are on. The red will come right back once you've got the algae under control and can slowly begin turning the lights back up.

Also, I would just run the lights as on vs off at a certain % power, and no ramp-up or ramp-down. Some moon lights are fine if you like that look.

Quote:
You might want to look into DTPA Iron instead of the iron found in CSM+B given your pH.

I actually switched to a DTPA iron a couple months ago. I want to say it helped with growth. This type of algae has always been an issue though. I really prefer the 24/7 light as opposed to on/off (you know, like nature intended), so I guess I'll program the different time slots to reduce intensity. Should I reduce all colors or just the white?


Quote:
Seachem Excel is not a carbon source, it is not CO2 and it is not a CO2 replacement. Aquarium product manufactures are masters at marketing, and mislead the buyer with many products.
Excel is a mild algaecide that allows users to run slightly higher light with a reduced risk of an algae outbreak. It may or may not help break down protein films growing on plant tissue, allowing plants better access to atmospheric CO2 naturally occurring in the water.

Excel can be used to spot treat, and create plant dips to help control algae.
Excel should be used as an algaecide, not a carbon or CO2 source / supplement.

Interesting. Okay.

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post #20 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-27-2020, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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I just added two capfuls of Excel and programmed one of the lights so the intensity of the white light is lower outside of the 9am to 3pm timeframe. I will keep the second light off until things improve.

Does water temp have any effect? I'm currently at 78F.
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post #21 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-27-2020, 11:34 PM
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Hope things start stabilizing soon for you!

Just to give you an idea..

4 hours at 100% light, with an 1.5hrs of 50% in front and another 1.5hrs at 50% in back for a total of 7 hours.

The pic unfortunately doesn't do them justice but the plants have more red color than when I received them from a very nice fellow off the WTB forum. Not to say that he was growing them in low light or poor conditions. It took them acouple weeks but they just pop now. And I'm trimming weekly.

And yes, turn the temp down. 70/72 would help tremendously. Since you only have amano's in there right?


Last edited by pauld738; 04-27-2020 at 11:35 PM. Reason: Add temp note
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post #22 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-28-2020, 12:02 AM Thread Starter
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Looks great. I'm jealous. I've had my eyes on a 22 gallon ultraclear rimless, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.

Yes, Amanos only, but I plan on adding a school of small colorful fish. Not sure which ones yet. I like CPDs, but don't want a shy fish.

I've never kept a tank below 76, so I'm interested in seeing what effect it has. I've been in the mindset of tropical plants like warm water. 70-72 is very chilly. Amanos are going to be okay with this?

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post #23 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-28-2020, 12:38 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pauld738 View Post
Hope things start stabilizing soon for you!

Just to give you an idea..

4 hours at 100% light, with an 1.5hrs of 50% in front and another 1.5hrs at 50% in back for a total of 7 hours.

The pic unfortunately doesn't do them justice but the plants have more red color than when I received them from a very nice fellow off the WTB forum. Not to say that he was growing them in low light or poor conditions. It took them acouple weeks but they just pop now. And I'm trimming weekly.

And yes, turn the temp down. 70/72 would help tremendously. Since you only have amano's in there right?


Replied to your previous post but forgot to quote it so you received notification.


Do I have this right?...


My degassed pH this morning, after CO2 has been off for 14 hours, is 7.2, which I believe correlates to 7.5ppm of CO2. If my goal is 30 ppm CO2 during the day, then my pH should be about 6.6. To get the desired pH increase of about 1 from day to night, then my nighttime/degassed pH should be closer to 7.6 (3-4 ppm of CO2), correct? If so, I need to offgass more CO2 at night by using an airstone? Or are you saying to increase the CO2 during the day to bring the pH down by at least 1? If the latter, wouldn't that bring my CO2 levels over 30ppm? I don't entirely understand why a swing of 1 pH is a good indicator of CO2 level when the level is an absolute measurement based on a fixed kH number and fixed pH number.

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post #24 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-28-2020, 12:46 PM
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Replied to your previous post but forgot to quote it so you received notification.


Do I have this right?...


My degassed pH this morning, after CO2 has been off for 14 hours, is 7.2, which I believe correlates to 7.5ppm of CO2. If my goal is 30 ppm CO2 during the day, then my pH should be about 6.6. To get the desired pH increase of about 1 from day to night, then my nighttime/degassed pH should be closer to 7.6 (3-4 ppm of CO2), correct? If so, I need to offgass more CO2 at night by using an airstone? Or are you saying to increase the CO2 during the day to bring the pH down by at least 1? If the latter, wouldn't that bring my CO2 levels over 30ppm? I don't entirely understand the swing of 1 pH as being a good indicator of CO2 level when the level is an absolute measurement based on a fixed kH number and fixed pH number.
Leave a cup or bucket of your tapwater out for a full 24 hours, or a few hours with an airstone running in it.

It's possible you still have some CO2 in the water 14 hours later, giving you 7ish ppm.

Target that 1.0 drop in pH from fully degassed water. If your water is fully degassed at a pH of 7.2, you should aim / work towards a pH of 6.2 for as much of the photoperiod as you can.

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post #25 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-28-2020, 12:57 PM Thread Starter
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Do I inject CO2 during the 1.5 hrs before/after when the light intensity is 50%, or only during 100% intensity?

Sorry, but I'm still confused as to why the relationship with my offgassed WC water (50/50 RO/tap) determines what my daytime pH (and thus CO2 level) should be. It will click eventually. Maybe I just need to hear it a different way to understand.

We're using the pH level along with the kH to calculate CO2, correct? Isn't the guideline 30ppm for the entirety of the photo period? As long as the CO2 doesn't rise to toxic levels at night, then why does the delta between night/offgassed and day/gassed matter? To me, that would be like saying to measure the temperature of your tap water then setting your tank temperature 1 degree below that, when the tank temperature should be a specific number, not some random offset from your tap.

Again, I'm not questioning your expertise. You clearly know what you are doing. I'm just having trouble understanding the logic.

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Do I inject CO2 during the 1.5 hrs before/after when the light intensity is 50%, or only during 100% intensity?

Sorry, but I'm still confused as to why the relationship with my offgassed WC water (50/50 RO/tap) dictates what my daytime pH (and thus CO2 level) should be.
Ideally yes, you'll want CO2 levels stable throughout the entire time the plant is photosynthesizing.

Dissolved CO2 creates carboxylic acid, and thus lowers the pH. A pH drop of ~1.0 will = 30ppm of dissolved CO2.

Maintaining a consistent pH drop (1.0, 1.1, 1.2 etc. whatever works best for each tank) from the time the plant starts photosynthesis for the day until it stops when the lights shut off is what we are aiming to do.

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post #27 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-28-2020, 01:07 PM
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Just to add to what the other guys are saying about lighting. Every tank I start up I use 5 hrs of light and usually a 2 hr burst of full light. I've grown out complete tanks this way algae free including hi-light demanding full carpets. I actually have AR mini growing now nicely using the same system. That combined with regular large water changes, purigen and/or carbon in the filter and removing dead/decaying leaves, etc. helps tremendously.

One note on the finnex 24/7. Not that powerful and on a 20g H you might be only at 30-40 par depending on how high your substrate is, so you might need to run the 2nd one for an hour or two. If it's for a short duration then as mentioned your plants should be able to handle one.
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post #28 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-28-2020, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Do I inject CO2 during the 1.5 hrs before/after when the light intensity is 50%, or only during 100% intensity?

Sorry, but I'm still confused as to why the relationship with my offgassed WC water (50/50 RO/tap) dictates what my daytime pH (and thus CO2 level) should be.
Ideally yes, you'll want CO2 levels stable throughout the entire time the plant is photosynthesizing.

Dissolved CO2 creates carboxylic acid, and thus lowers the pH. A pH drop of ~1.0 will = 30ppm of dissolved CO2.

Maintaining a consistent pH drop (1.0, 1.1, 1.2 etc. whatever works best for each tank) from the time the plant starts photosynthesis for the day until it stops when the lights shut off is what we are aiming to do.
Can you explain how a pH drop of 1 is equivalent to 30ppm of CO2 if CO2 is supposedly a relationship between a fixed kH and pH value?

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post #29 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-28-2020, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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Just to add to what the other guys are saying about lighting. Every tank I start up I use 5 hrs of light and usually a 2 hr burst of full light. I've grown out complete tanks this way algae free including hi-light demanding full carpets. I actually have AR mini growing now nicely using the same system. That combined with regular large water changes, purigen and/or carbon in the filter and removing dead/decaying leaves, etc. helps tremendously.

One note on the finnex 24/7. Not that powerful and on a 20g H you might be only at 30-40 par depending on how high your substrate is, so you might need to run the 2nd one for an hour or two. If it's for a short duration then as mentioned your plants should be able to handle one.
I just programmed the one light for a 7 hour photoperiod and noticed full brightness isn't that bright. I'll program the second one to come on for a couple hours mid-period. Does that mean full brightness with one light is my 50%? I need a PAR meter! Haha.
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post #30 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-28-2020, 01:29 PM
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Can you explain how a pH drop of 1 is equivalent to 30ppm of CO2 if CO2 is supposedly a relationship between a fixed kH and pH value?
Co2 is not in a fixed relationship with kH and pH in our tanks.

I'm assuming you are talking about the green / yellow / red kH/pH/CO2 chart?

It's a guideline only, and only assumes CO3 is the only thing affecting kH and CO2 is the only thing affecting pH, which is not the case in our tanks.


https://barrreport.com/threads/co2-ph-kh-table.10717/
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