Dosing EI and TDS rising regardless of 50% weekly water changes - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 10:18 AM Thread Starter
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Dosing EI and TDS rising regardless of 50% weekly water changes

Hey all,

I'm currently fighting through an algae outbreak and I'm trying to figure out what I might be doing wrong.

So into the issue - I recently bought a TDS meter and measured my tap water at 80 TDS. Just before a water change a week ago my TDS was at 260 ppm. I changed 50% of water, and as you'd expect TDS was around 170ppm. A week later, I did another 50% water change but now TDS is at 200, so it is steadily rising. During the week I add the ferts daily with an autodoser and feed the fish once a day, making sure no leftovers remain in the tank.

This leads me to believe I may be adding too many ferts and that my plants are not consuming what I'm adding. And even though everyone is saying excess ferts are never the cause of algae, maybe they could be? I'm still new to EI but I would expect the large water change to reset ferts, but now TDS is rising instead.

I'm dosing EI with ready-to-use liquid fertilizers from Aqua Rebell. For macros I use Aqua Rebell Makro Basic Estimative Index and for micros I use Aqua Rebell Mikro Basic Eisen. I have medium'ish lights and they are on 8 hours a day. I use pressurized CO2 which is on 8 hours a day, offset by 1.5 hours so that it turns on before lights are on and shuts off before lights are off. I use a surface skimmer on a schedule to bring some aeration into the tank.

Tank volume is 120 liters but maybe 20l liters is taken by high substrate, hardscape and plant mass. According to instructions with little light I should add 0.5-2ml of macros a day per 40 liters and at high lights 5 ml per 40 liters. Not accounting for hardscape an absolute maximum would then be 15ml of macros daily and an absolute minimum would be 1.5ml macros daily.

I used to dose 8ml macro and 3ml micro per day, but since then I dropped micro to 1ml per day and now yesterday I dropped macros to 6ml per day.

I haven't measured water param development for a while, but when I did my PO4 and K were always almost off the scale high. Nitrates however were always below 20. Fe was also building up a bit.

Am I dosing too many ferts?

My tank is fully planted (check picture below), but most plants are not fast growers.
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 02:41 PM
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Is that a spray bar on the top? Tank looks good, algae or not.


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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 03:05 PM
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I'm pretty sure the TDS rise is just from evaporation and concentration of dissolved solids. Dissolved solids do not evaporate with the water, so over time they get more and more concentrated. I THINK eventually this is suppose to reach equilibrium? Can anyone confirm this?

Tank looks great! Your algae issue may well be related to high PO4, but looking at what is in these macro/micro solutions, I'm not sure why your PO4 and K would be through the roof....

Knowing what is in the tank helps tremendously, so now that you have reduced your dosing, test you water parameters for a week or too, see where things end up.
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 03:12 PM
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What kind of light are you actually running? Do you know how much PAR? Are you running the same strength for the full 8 hrs?


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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by carlsj2012 View Post
I'm pretty sure the TDS rise is just from evaporation and concentration of dissolved solids. Dissolved solids do not evaporate with the water, so over time they get more and more concentrated. I THINK eventually this is suppose to reach equilibrium? Can anyone confirm this?

Tank looks great! Your algae issue may well be related to high PO4, but looking at what is in these macro/micro solutions, I'm not sure why your PO4 and K would be through the roof....

Knowing what is in the tank helps tremendously, so now that you have reduced your dosing, test you water parameters for a week or too, see where things end up.
I have a lid on the aquarium so there is barely any evaporation. However the increase was quite drastic - from 170 after water change to 200 which means a 20% weekly increase.

My PO4 kit has two scales, one "sensitive" scale and one for ponds I suppose? The "sensitive" one maxes out at 1.8 mg/l of PO4. The K test maxes out at 15 mg/l.

But yeah, will do.

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What kind of light are you actually running? Do you know how much PAR? Are you running the same strength for the full 8 hrs?
Unfortunately no PAR readings to be found anywhere, so I asked my LFS about it and he said its medium-ish light. The lights run at the same strength the whole time.
Its 2 led tubes, Juwel LED COLOR (14 watts @ 590mm tube) and Juwel LED DAY (also 14W at 590mm). Together these yield 1610 + 1290 = 2900 Lumen, although that may not say much. Tank is 55cm tall (including the rim), but substrate is very high at some points and water is filled to around 50cm. I'd say substrate is something between 35-45cm from the lights.

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Is that a spray bar on the top? Tank looks good, algae or not.


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Yeah, it's an eheim installation kit 2 spray bar. Thanks! Just wish it was as beautiful up close. Also I'm afraid it will get much worse unless I get this under control...

120 liters, EI & CO2 and medium lights.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 03:35 PM
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I think you are headed in the right direction by slowly lower ferts and waiting to see what happens. TDS should be resetting. Mine does.

As for algae, often times it can be a light and co2 issue. Reduce light by 30 minutes per day, maybe even an hour. See what happens. As an example my tank with co2 and medium light runs for around 6 during the week and 8 hrs on weekends with a break mid-day.
And or bump up co2 a bit. I see you have a drop checker but do you measure pH drop? Might be safer to fiddle with co2 if you know what your drop is.

CO2 really should be on till lights out but that's a small thing.

Tank looks really good overall though!

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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by qoob View Post
...
Unfortunately no PAR readings to be found anywhere, so I asked my LFS about it and he said its medium-ish light. The lights run at the same strength the whole time.
Its 2 led tubes, Juwel LED COLOR (14 watts @ 590mm tube) and Juwel LED DAY (also 14W at 590mm). Together these yield 1610 + 1290 = 2900 Lumen, although that may not say much. Tank is 55cm tall (including the rim), but substrate is very high at some points and water is filled to around 50cm. I'd say substrate is something between 35-45cm from the lights.
...
When you have healthy looking plants, I'm a firm believer that most algae issues are related to light and the organic load. There's usually too much light for what the system can uptake and keep the water column clean. You don't need 8 hrs of full light. I would reduce the peak intensity (whatever your running) down to 3-4 hrs aand the rest be dimmable light for viewing purposes. Since it's difficult to pinpoint I would also use (if your not) carbon or purigen in the filter. This will reduce the organics that decompose and release toxins/ammonia that get's the algae going.
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 04:30 PM
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I'm not going to address the algae issues, as others are doing that nicely. I will address your rising TDS issue.

You are not changing 50% of your water. You are changing 35% of your water, so the expectations for lower nutrient levels are overstated. If you were changing 50% of your water, your TDS reading would be 50% of the before-change reading. In fact, using a TDS meter, in this way, is a good method for determining your actual water volume. Your rated tank water volume is not the actual water volume once you have substrate and all other things in it.

Additionally, there is a cumulative effect when dosing. Nutrient uptake does not match dosing and we never know, with certainty, what our uptake levels are. You can play around with this aspect here: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Accumulation Calculator. The ppm levels shown in these calculators are actual ppm levels. They are unlikely to translate to your TDS meter readings, which are nominally presented as ppm, as you likely have a 500 scale meter. However, you can use relative references, e.g.; if you see ppm accumulation of a 20ppm starting point to a 40ppm accumulation, you know this is 50%. You can then take your TDS reading and apply a 50% increase to better approximate your accumulation as read by your particular TDS meter.
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 06:21 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pauld738 View Post
I think you are headed in the right direction by slowly lower ferts and waiting to see what happens. TDS should be resetting. Mine does.

As for algae, often times it can be a light and co2 issue. Reduce light by 30 minutes per day, maybe even an hour. See what happens. As an example my tank with co2 and medium light runs for around 6 during the week and 8 hrs on weekends with a break mid-day.
And or bump up co2 a bit. I see you have a drop checker but do you measure pH drop? Might be safer to fiddle with co2 if you know what your drop is.

CO2 really should be on till lights out but that's a small thing.

Tank looks really good overall though!

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I had to cut CO2 down after I saw some shrimp swimming erratically. So even if I'm not at the infamous 1 point drop, I can't bring it up by much either. I think I could bring it up a bit still, while increasing aeration. My needle valve is a bit finicky so I need to find a long lever to adjust it more precisely. About different light schedules for weekend/week - isn't that likely to cause issues? I've read stability in everything is key.

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Originally Posted by Asteroid View Post
When you have healthy looking plants, I'm a firm believer that most algae issues are related to light and the organic load. There's usually too much light for what the system can uptake and keep the water column clean. You don't need 8 hrs of full light. I would reduce the peak intensity (whatever your running) down to 3-4 hrs aand the rest be dimmable light for viewing purposes. Since it's difficult to pinpoint I would also use (if your not) carbon or purigen in the filter. This will reduce the organics that decompose and release toxins/ammonia that get's the algae going.
Unfortunately these lights are not dimmable, AFAIK. I could reduce the hours but then again I kinda wanna see into my tank when I'm home I bleach treated my purigen bag and forgot it outside to aerate after treating it with seachem prime - I'm really paranoid about the chlorine going back into the tank and wiping everything out. It has been treated 2 times with seachem prime and it has aerated outside for like 1 month so I guess I could put it back

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I'm not going to address the algae issues, as others are doing that nicely. I will address your rising TDS issue.

You are not changing 50% of your water. You are changing 35% of your water, so the expectations for lower nutrient levels are overstated. If you were changing 50% of your water, your TDS reading would be 50% of the before-change reading. In fact, using a TDS meter, in this way, is a good method for determining your actual water volume. Your rated tank water volume is not the actual water volume once you have substrate and all other things in it.

Additionally, there is a cumulative effect when dosing. Nutrient uptake does not match dosing and we never know, with certainty, what our uptake levels are. You can play around with this aspect here: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Accumulation Calculator. The ppm levels shown in these calculators are actual ppm levels. They are unlikely to translate to your TDS meter readings, which are nominally presented as ppm, as you likely have a 500 scale meter. However, you can use relative references, e.g.; if you see ppm accumulation of a 20ppm starting point to a 40ppm accumulation, you know this is 50%. You can then take your TDS reading and apply a 50% increase to better approximate your accumulation as read by your particular TDS meter.
How do you figure? On the first measurement I had before and after numbers (260 -> 50% WC with tap at 80 -> TDS was 170. (260 + 80) / x = 170 -> x = 0.5). On the second I only measured after water change, so my TDS was likely in the 400s before the water change. I also have drawn a line where the mid point of water volume goes, and changing it until there.

120 liters, EI & CO2 and medium lights.
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How do you figure? On the first measurement I had before and after numbers (260 -> 50% WC with tap at 80 -> TDS was 170. (260 + 80) / x = 170 -> x = 0.5). On the second I only measured after water change, so my TDS was likely in the 400s before the water change. I also have drawn a line where the mid point of water volume goes, and changing it until there.
You're right. For some reason, I thought you were using RO water.
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 06:42 PM
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Dosing EI and TDS rising regardless of 50% weekly water changes

I dose powders into solutions so your ferts May effect tds differently but I tracked my ei dosing and the daily increase from ferts (dosing both macros and micros everyday) was 14~ tds increase per day including a daily feeding with a low bio load.

Did you measure your tap water once or each time and itís giving the same tds? My tap water will change by about 100 tds through out the year depending on rains and seasons. Also, consider 65%-70% water changes to really reset the nutrients and prevent high build up. I do this and I know what my tds is before I even measure it because it is more predictable.




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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 07:48 PM Thread Starter
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You're right. For some reason, I thought you were using RO water.
Ah right, makes sense. Luckily my tap water is quite soft (and high quality) so I don't have to worry about RO.

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I dose powders into solutions so your ferts May effect tds differently but I tracked my ei dosing and the daily increase from ferts (dosing both macros and micros everyday) was 14~ tds increase per day including a daily feeding with a low bio load.

Did you measure your tap water once or each time and it’s giving the same tds? My tap water will change by about 100 tds through out the year depending on rains and seasons. Also, consider 65%-70% water changes to really reset the nutrients and prevent high build up. I do this and I know what my tds is before I even measure it because it is more predictable.

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The TDS meter I have is a cheap one from China through ebay, I wonder how accurate it is. It is accurately measuring tap water at around 80-90 ppm though. I think the tap water around here is quite consistent around the year but I'll have to keep an eye on it. Now it is at 80-90ppm though, according to multiple measurements on different days.

I'm thinking about adding an extra 30% water change into the schedule once a month or so. I want to minimize big changes and doing the recommended 50% with Caridina shrimp feels a bit like pushing it.

I just find it odd this buildup is never mentioned in EI guides. It's always a 50% WC weekly and thats it. How common is this? Or am I just dosing too much? Plants are doing great, but so is algae. Water quality seems high and I feed only once a day, and everything is eaten.

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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 09:41 PM
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Nice jobe on the tank the video is good that it does show some week pealing wich is good. I had algae issues like yours and it took me a long time to figure out.

Basically you have a nutrient imballance. your tank is probably deficient in some nutrient. Your plants are growing well after the water change but growth slows or stops due to the deficient nutrient. Algae however is not affected by the deficiency and takes advantage of the nutrients the plants cannot use.

The problem starts with your water and substrate. Not all tap water is the same and some tap water has a lot of nutrients while other people have water with no nutrients in it. The substrate may or may not add any. Leaving your fertilizer as the major source of nutrients.

Farmers and gardeners typically pay close attention to NPK because they wash out of the soil easily when it rains. Most don't worry about all the others due to the fact they don't wash out easily and stay in the soil. Most fertilizers manufactures pay close attention to NPK because it washes out easily and less attention to everything else. manufactures also cut back on some nutrients that are common in tap water to reduce manufacturing costs.

So Lest start looking at your fettilizers. Your macro bottle Has NPK. Good But what about the other 4 macros? The macro list is N,K, Ca,Mg, P, S, Cl. Note I ordered this list on the rate of consumption by plants. Plants need a lot of nitrogen so that is first and while Cl the, least used macro, is last. Tap water is chlorinated so typically it is not a problem. Ca?, Most fertilizers don't have any. Mg? Most people think of this as a micro not a macro so it is in your micro bottle at a dose less than what plants need. And then there is sulfur. Were is it?

Ca Mg, S, and CL are typically found in tap water but not always in appropriate amounts. Many people use GH boosters to compensate for low Ca, Mg levels. A GH test will tell you the overall Ca and Mg level of your water but it will not tell you the level of each. Most of the frequently used GH boosters listed on this site are made from calcium sulfate and magnesium sulfate. Which would provide the Ca, Mg, and S plants need. Most tap water is chlorinated so that is generally not a problem.

Now lets look at your micros. The full micro list by order of consumption is Fe, Mn, B, Zn, Cu, Mo and Ni. Now fortunately this company list the PPM dose their fertilizer supplies. Based on ppm dose level Fe, Mn, and Mo are fine. but copper is a bit low but OK. Unfortunately the good news ends there. B and Zn are very low and Ni is not present.

Typically you want to see B and Zn at about 0.02ppm. Copper at 0.01ppm. Nickel is the least used of all nutrients and a dose of 0.001ppm is probably more than enough. Nickel is also one of the last nutrients identified. Basically the combination of fish waist and tap water is enough to supply nickel. Many water utilities use copper pipes or galvanized steel pipes so corrosion can sometimes provide too much but there is typically some in the water. Some fertilizers don't include copper to make them Shrimp safe. Yet from my own experience plants will not grow without copper in my RO/DI water tank. 0.010ppm of copper is safe for shrimp and some tap water has a lot of copper in it. My tap has 0.05ppm of copper in it.

When EI was developed the issues with Ca, Mg, S, were not known. only in about the last 5 years have people been paying more attention to these nutrients. Also When EI was developed the best micro mix on the market was used, CSM+B. Only recently the have people become aware of the problems in the micros. So some people including myself are now making our own micros.

At this point in time I would first focus on macros. IT is the easiest to fix and the most likely problem. Try increasing your GH to see if that helps. It is the easiest to fix. Many people aim for a gh of 4 to 6 degrees but it really depends on your water. Find out what your GH of your tap water is first and go from there.

As to your light,, Think of it as a car, the throttle is the light output, and the gas is your fertilizer. If you drive it at full throttle all the time you probably will run out of gas or something will break before you get to your destination. But if you drove slower thing will run better and you likely will not run out of gas.

Reducing light levels typically works because it slows plant growth and delays the onset of a nutrient deficiency in the aquarium. But if your nutrients are really out of balance it will not work. Tankfully your video is showing that your tank is running fairly well at he moment and the Algae issue is not as bad as I have had. So you are off to a good start. But you cannot figure out the problem you could use a lab test of your water. I have used this test:

https://www.amazon.com/ICP-Analysis-...2-4ca5ff43ebe6

It detects 13 of the 14 plant nutrients. it any one reads zero you are deficient in that nutrient.

As to TDS it will eventually stabilize if you are consistent with your water changes and fertilizer dosing. Yes EI does deliberately provide a little more nutrients than needed but it is preferable to do so . Having more than needed to make the sudden unexpected nutrient problems less likely to occur.

But like all equipment proper maintenance is needed to insure it works consistently. After use dip the sensor in distilled or DI water. This will wash off the minerals the water leaves behind. If minerals build up on the sensor the calibration will shift and the reading may increase.
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 05:52 AM
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I had to cut CO2 down after I saw some shrimp swimming erratically. So even if I'm not at the infamous 1 point drop, I can't bring it up by much either. I think I could bring it up a bit still, while increasing aeration. My needle valve is a bit finicky so I need to find a long lever to adjust it more precisely. About different light schedules for weekend/week - isn't that likely to cause issues? I've read stability in everything is key.
Yeah, pay attention to what your fish/shrimp are saying. I wouldn't be messing with that either.

I finally got a chance to look at your tank on something other than a phone as well as your algae outbreak video. I had a similar type of algae outbreak before switching to 6 hours per day weekday and the midday break on the weekends. Maybe not quite as bad as yours but it was that long stringy algae.

And I didn't mean that you should be doing the exact same schedule as I am. For me the midday break on the weekends is due to the tank receiving an hour or so of direct sunlight during the summer months. And since I like to look at my tank with the lights on, it's on in the morning for breakfast and again in the evening. I mentioned it only to give an example of what can be done.

You've had a lot of good advice on here but my take is that if your plants are growing nicely, and you aren't pushing the boundaries with super high lighting and fast growing stems, than algae growth is a more a function of too much light for the amount of dissolved organics in the system. Reduce one or both and things will come around.
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 06:40 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, pay attention to what your fish/shrimp are saying. I wouldn't be messing with that either.

I finally got a chance to look at your tank on something other than a phone as well as your algae outbreak video. I had a similar type of algae outbreak before switching to 6 hours per day weekday and the midday break on the weekends. Maybe not quite as bad as yours but it was that long stringy algae.

And I didn't mean that you should be doing the exact same schedule as I am. For me the midday break on the weekends is due to the tank receiving an hour or so of direct sunlight during the summer months. And since I like to look at my tank with the lights on, it's on in the morning for breakfast and again in the evening. I mentioned it only to give an example of what can be done.

You've had a lot of good advice on here but my take is that if your plants are growing nicely, and you aren't pushing the boundaries with super high lighting and fast growing stems, than algae growth is a more a function of too much light for the amount of dissolved organics in the system. Reduce one or both and things will come around.
Cheers. I had a CPD with a couple scratches and my LFS asked me to bring a water sample with me while buying the medicine. They used strip tests and measured NO3 at 80 mg/l, which I thought ridiculous since my drop test said NO3 was at 5-10 mg/l. My LFS explained that the kit I was using had been discontinued and might've been quite old, so I bought a new kit which is supposed to be a bit more precise. NO3 was measured at something between 25 mg/l and 50 mg/l, but closer to 25 mg/l. Since my PO4, K and now NO3 seem to be building up, I think it is safe to assume I am overdosing macros for the plants I have. I suspect it has to do with the fact that most of my plants are not fast growers, even though I have a big plant mass.

To fix it, I am going to do one or two extra 30% water changes this week, in addition to the regular 50% weekly routine. I am also adding a bag of purigen to my canister filter. I am reducing macros from 8ml day to 6ml day and see where that lands me. I think it may still be too much, but that remains to be seen.

If that does not yield results, I will buy a light that can be dimmed, since I really don't want to give up on the 8 hour daily light schedule. I know of a brand that fits my aquarium enclosure, but it is stupid expensive.

Thanks to everyone for your help.
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