The Planted Tank Forum banner

Red plants only red near surface, and plenty of dust algae

3K views 27 replies 11 participants last post by  Ddrizzle 
#1 ·
Has anyone ever dealt with a situation like this? I can't keep my led bar on for more than 5 or 6 hours a day without getting a noticeable layer of dust algae on my glass.

Light is about 60 par at the bottom over my 22 gallon long. 50% water change with RO per week. Not fertilizing atm and it's still happening at the same rate. I also have bga that constantly grows in one small dead spot which needs a cleaning each week too.

At the same time, my stem plants that are able to turn red ONLY turn red an inch or so from the surface of the water.

What does this mean and where do I dtaty troubleshooting? How am I getting alage but also not enough light to turn my plants red all the way down?
 
#2 ·
Dont have the answers but things that will help,
-What light are you using?
-What tank inhabitants are there?
-Water parameters?
-How heavily planted (any pics)?
-Is the tank anywhere that direct or indirect sunlight can get to it?
-How long has tank been up and running?

The 22g long is a pretty shallow tank so that will have to be a consideration. In my 40b I had a couple bouts of green soup and green dust algae and couldnt fight it until I realized a glass pane door was letting sunlight onto the tank in the morning (Im usually at work in the morning). Once I fixed that I moved on from green dust and green soup to other algaes to get under control.
 
#5 ·
Ludwigia senegalensis was one of my "red" stem plants that only turned red on the top and second most layer. The article says they need higher light to get more red

To me this means my tank must be dirty or way less planted then I realize because if I add more par I think I'll need to clean algae every day.

I also just cracked open a bloodworm cube this week instead of a shrimp one and I got more algae this week. I have 8 chocolate gouramis and a few scarlet badis. I didnt think this was overstocked but maybe it is or I'm overfeeding. A cube typically lasts me 5 days though and I feed a little each day.

And yes I remineralize with gh boost and potassium carbonate for kh. I watch their levels, along with ph and co2 to make sure kh is right. TDS was around 185 yesterday as well.

No sources of direct sunlight on it for any extended period of time. Parameters are all what we would consider normal but I'll let you know if any stick out during my next testing. Tank has been up for 3+ months and I had the same problem with my last one. Its so weird that I almost think its somehow the light itself (current led pro plus). My wife has the same light and is running into similar algae issues each week.

I'll post pictures but I'd say the tank is medium planted, not quite sure though. You'll get to see the algae that appears within a week too. Sadly I dont have an unstocked, and therefore possibly cleaner tank to test the environment against.
 
#7 · (Edited by Moderator)
Ok, here are pics of my tank one week after cleaning the glass, brushing the hardscape and scraping anubia and buce leaves. Plenty of BGA and dust algae.

Notice the rotala on the back right are a red species but are barely turning red.
 

Attachments

#8 ·
Ah where thars your problem.

Your only fast growing plants are the rotala and you have like... 8 stems? Thats nowhere near enough. You need 3 - 4 times that in fast growing stems in a tank like this if you are going with high light.

In short.. SPAWN MORE PLANTS!

:p

And make them fast growing plants.

Edit: Looking again at later pictures and its confusing how many plants you have.. Something with the angle...

Anyway some plants will stop growing as quickly when they reach the surface if they can't grow out of the water. You may want to trim, plant the trimmings and let them all grow to the surface again.. a few times.
 
#12 ·
One thing I meant to ask was...

People say "try to not disturb the substrate when cleaning." Does that mean dont get the detritus off the substrate, or dont pick up a bunch of the substrate itself?

Also, how do you clean the detritus when you cant effectively get a siphon down between a forest of stem plants?
 
#13 ·
I would advise you get the detritus off that substrate as it's probably doing negative things to the tank rather then good.
Context really plays a part in what they would mean by that, are they saying that to not mess up a scape? Or are they talking about not releasing a lot of ammonia when tinkering in the tank.

The way that I get things stirred up in the tank and out of the plants is I swirl the siphon tub around the area I'm trying to clean and it picks everything up.
 
#15 ·
what are your nitrate levels? My rotala get this appearance with low co2 or high nitrates.

edit: I have a 22 long as well. I find it difficult to get a lot of red in the stems before they get so long they need to be trimmed. Nitrate limitation helps a lot in this case.
 
#17 ·
Flow has been a real issue with my 22 long. In a perfect world I'd have a filter for each side.

Anyways, nitrates are typically under 10 ppm or lower. In fact, when I say I fertilize I almost never dose nitrates either. Its just phosphate, potassium from potassium bicarbonate for kh levels, and then micros. The rotala were twice as long as you see now but have stopped growing as much since I turned the lights down to 75 from 100 and stopped fertilizing (thinking frets caused the algae). Maybe my aquasoil is finally running out of N or something.

Is it possible for a tank to be dirty with low nitrates and TDS (currently 230)? I'm getting a lot of BGA and GDA still. I've yet to clean the detritus though.

I also suggest a turkey baster while vac'ing. I typically just disturb the top 1/4"-1/2" or so, helps it release any trapped particulate.

People get worried that if you really start rooting around in your substrate, you can disrupt the beneficial bacteria and disturb anoxic pockets. Honestly, I've never had an issue with either being a problem, even when tearing down a scape and doing a deep gravel vac'ing on the whole tank. There's parts of my substrate, currently, I simply can't "deep clean" because of plant mass, but in open sand areas, I'll occasionally do a deep gravel vac, just to remove any build up and because it's faster and easier than taking my time with a turkey baster. I use the turkey baster in the densely planted areas that I can't use the gravel vac effectively in.
Ok, then I need to do a MAJOR detritus cleaning. I was running with the assu.ption that detritus is somewhat ok and to not touch the substrate.

I also thought that if my parameters are in check then my tank is clean. There mist be more to a tank being dirty related to the detritus.

It's either that or 60 par really is just way too much for my plant mass I guess.
 
#16 ·
I also suggest a turkey baster while vac'ing. I typically just disturb the top 1/4"-1/2" or so, helps it release any trapped particulate.

People get worried that if you really start rooting around in your substrate, you can disrupt the beneficial bacteria and disturb anoxic pockets. Honestly, I've never had an issue with either being a problem, even when tearing down a scape and doing a deep gravel vac'ing on the whole tank. There's parts of my substrate, currently, I simply can't "deep clean" because of plant mass, but in open sand areas, I'll occasionally do a deep gravel vac, just to remove any build up and because it's faster and easier than taking my time with a turkey baster. I use the turkey baster in the densely planted areas that I can't use the gravel vac effectively in.
 
#19 ·
It's essentially EI but only 1/4 of what it calls for.

Btw I did a major detritus scrub and on all the surfaces and substrate yesterday and plan on doing it a couple more times this week. I'm also turning the light down to 2 hours a day for a week. I pulled off BGA off my glass. My god it was huge but luckily came off in mostly one piece with careful razor work.

I also counted my stems - about 20 in total. Someome above mentioned that 8 was too low. Well, I have 20 /shrug.
 
#20 ·
What's your GH and locale? You can try increasing CO2 and magnesium and see how that helps. There are unique challenges to getting good coloration in a 22 long. I have wrestled with it quite a bit. It is highly linked to the overall volume:surface area ratio of these low tanks.

Also, keep doing 50-60% water changes every week. I think you will find good improvement for the algae. Also make sure you are actually removing that much water. 50% volume change for me basically only leaves about 3" of water left in my 22 long.

edit: perhaps I should explain this better. Sorry if this seems esoteric but I think if you can understand this concept, things should make more sense.

Suppose you have a 20H and a 20L aquarium. The entire bottom of the tank is planted with Rotala. Now suppose that you have the same growth rate in both tanks. Which tank uses more nutrients? Of course the 20L because you have more planted surface area. Now, then which tank would require more dosing? Of course the tank with more plants. Thus, I argue that long aspect ratio tanks need higher levels (more ppm) per week. You also need to run higher concentrations of everything (CO2, Ca, Mg, Fe, NPK etc.) to give yourself more leeway in terms of bottoming out. The difference ends up coming to be about 20% more for the 20H and 20L analogy (by simple dimensional reduction of mass fertilizer per surface area). I also propose that CO2 is one of more difficult parameters to raise because of acute poisoning and the higher surface area:volume ratio means you lose a lot of the CO2 you put in to reach an elevated level.
 
#21 ·
Thanks and I get your 20L surface area idea. I just still cannot comprehend why I get the algae I do with them plant mass I have. I'm assuming I just need way more stem plants.

I stopped adding ferts as a test because when I tried adding MORE ferts I'd get even more alage (definitely green spot from the phosphate and quicker green dust reappearance after cleaning).

The best the tank has ever looked algae-wise was right after christmas when I had the light and co2 set to an hour a day when I was on vacation. No more algae on leaves or on the glass. However the rotala wasnt as red and shrunk a little. I put it back up to 5 hours at 60 par and this happens.
 
#22 ·
I would say dosing more and doing more water changes every week as well as cleaning the glass every week will improve your situation a lot. I also have (they are very big now) SAEs, some otos, and amano shrimp in my tank and the only algae I have is some spot algae and some BBA on old leaves that stays short as it is constantly grazed upon. Really though, water changes and cleaning is the best "free" option.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Quesenek
#24 ·
Lots to take in, thanks guys. I realize the basics yet cant get it right which is annoying me the most - Have light on enough to grow plants but not grow algae. Dont have too much excess ferts or grow algae.

Adding MORE ferts sounds so foreign to me because I would have thought excess ferts cause the algae from everything I've read. But not fertilizing has shown that BGA and GDA comes out faster. After the detritus I kicked up I am seriously wondering if I've been doing through enough water changes though.

As for the dual light setup and spikes, I've thought of that too... get a spike midday and then get much lower par for viewing pleasure. What I'm attempting now is to get the spike perfectly set in. Aiming for 2 hours of 60 par and co2. I've also started dosing again (light EI as I call it). Sadly the current led has so many features but NO way to add a ice curve throughout the day... its just on or off. I'm avoiding buy a second one for now.

Also, something I've observed before has shown up again now that I've switched back to my tap water instead of ro - my water was yellow when it read soft kh and gh. Even after adding a ton of both, my water was still slightly yellow. With my harder tap water, the water is clear again. I wonder how this will affect everything (no shrimp atm).
 
#26 ·
If algae were a thing that high fert levels caused then my tank would be nothing but algae.

Some info of my findings on algae as a whole:
From my experience I get algae only when my tank has an ammonia source. This could be from having a dirty filter, a cycle situation, built up detritus/plant matter pretty much anything.
While the ammonia source is present in the tank, anything that keeps the plants alive also helps the algae to grow this is because algae is a plant also. However cutting out any of the stuff to keep the plants healthy will also impede treatment of algae.

Outside of hard to kill algae like staghorn, BBA, cladophora, green water which need some outside influence to fully kill off you want to get your plants growing well and they should take care of the algae.

Take my current situation with my new 55 gallon setup.
From my little spike in ammonia from a mini cycle I got a ton of green algae growth on everything, there is still a small level of ammonia/nitrite in the water (test kit may be wrong) however in the few days since I've been adding seachem stability to finish off the mini cycle my plants have killed all of the misc green algae off. The only thing left is the staghorn algae which I'm treating with H2O2 but even that has stopped spreading since getting the ammonia levels very low. I have changed nothing in the tank besides fixing the issue of the ammonia source.

To the topic at hand with the GDA is that you might want to get a UV sterilizer, I recommend this one green killing machine, run it for a week straight and then have it running for 4-6 hours a day I have mine running at night. This website helped me get rid of mine with the recommendation of using a UV sterilizer: How to Identify and Remove Green Dust Algae.

Your BGA should go away with EI KNO3 dosage (10-21ppm NO3 dosed each week) after you have done what you can to get the NO3 higher dose this ultralife BGA remover and it'll kill the BGA within a few days. If you don't fix the reason why the BGA was there to begin with it'll just come right back.
 
#25 ·
i think the proper way to think about it is:

grow plants or grow algae.


everything you think of doing or changes to be made, needs to be in the perspective of making plants happy, and in time, algae just seems to go away. sounds like magic, but it does sort of work that way.

so, perhaps a step back is needed. like the others said -- and what you already started -- is a good idea. set an amount of ferts, 2 hrs of light and stick with it -- at least for a few weeks. do regular water changes, suck up detritus, remove algae, trim dead leaves. reinspect co2 delivery. be suspicious of inefficiencies. when the basics fail you, time to just do it over and over until something good shows.

all that other stuff i said can come later. as for the lighting schedule, do you fiddle with electronics like arduinos and the like? no? maybe it is time to part with the current and get something more programmable like a fluval 3.0.

but at the end of the day, theres people with gobs more par for many hours without fancy programming that are pulling this off. they just have the determination to do the necessary maintenance. super tidy, trimmed plants, regular consistent plant feeding, fastidious tank cleaning, etc.

as a maintenance slacker myself, i've either had to come up with these sneaky hacks of lighting schedules or just chide myself, try to inspire myself from this forum, youtube videos, grit my teeth, and go do some maintenance.
 
#27 ·
I'll probably end up buying a light with better curve options if that becomes a show stopper. Very interested to see how this goes and how hard I can push my plants with ferts in those two hours without getting algae.

If algae were a thing that high fert levels caused then my tank would be nothing but algae.

Some info of my findings on algae as a whole:
From my experience I get algae only when my tank has an ammonia source. This could be from having a dirty filter, a cycle situation, built up detritus/plant matter pretty much anything.
While the ammonia source is present in the tank, anything that keeps the plants alive also helps the algae to grow this is because algae is a plant also. However cutting out any of the stuff to keep the plants healthy will also impede treatment of algae.

Outside of hard to kill algae like staghorn, BBA, cladophora, green water which need some outside influence to fully kill off you want to get your plants growing well and they should take care of the algae.

Take my current situation with my new 55 gallon setup.
From my little spike in ammonia from a mini cycle I got a ton of green algae growth on everything, there is still a small level of ammonia/nitrite in the water (test kit may be wrong) however in the few days since I've been adding seachem stability to finish off the mini cycle my plants have killed all of the misc green algae off. The only thing left is the staghorn algae which I'm treating with H2O2 but even that has stopped spreading since getting the ammonia levels very low. I have changed nothing in the tank besides fixing the issue of the ammonia source.

To the topic at hand with the GDA is that you might want to get a UV sterilizer, I recommend this one green killing machine, run it for a week straight and then have it running for 4-6 hours a day I have mine running at night. This website helped me get rid of mine with the recommendation of using a UV sterilizer: How to Identify and Remove Green Dust Algae.

Your BGA should go away with EI KNO3 dosage (10-21ppm NO3 dosed each week) after you have done what you can to get the NO3 higher dose this ultralife BGA remover and it'll kill the BGA within a few days. If you don't fix the reason why the BGA was there to begin with it'll just come right back.
Interesting point on the ammonia. I havent been checking but it's currently at 0. I still have a lot of detritus to suck up and I've been doing 50% water changes every day this week to get at it.

Every time I pour water in to refill it seems to kick up more, but I'm already done sucking up! I have small squirted which have been helping in corners and areas my siphon cant reach but a legit turkey baster might be required.

And finally... I just want to post some of my bacopa crawling out of the side of my tank. I really like how stem plants look when they over grow!
 

Attachments

#28 ·
Update:

I've kept the photoperiod to only 100% @ 2 hours a day and have been doing twice weekly water changes. I focus on kicking up detritus on the substrate with a little plastic dropper thing while I suck it up with the siphon. This has worked well, no algae after two solid weeks.

I then got amanos and remembered just how much they terrorize detritus. They literally ate away all of the dead plants in a dead zone I had before I could even get a water change in. That dead spot is a separate issue in the plant subforum and has been solved.

Finally, I've permanently switched over to tap water which has cleared my tank up from a yellow to a clear color. The water I realized was incredibly soft for months due to amazonia substrate, which keeps it yellow.

After all is said and done I'm feeling much better about my tank. The fertilizing is back on, light is in a safe spot to tune from and the tank looks clean. Thanks everyone!

Oh, as for red plants haha... I'll get to play with my lights and see if that helps... slowly...
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top