Red plants only red near surface, and plenty of dust algae - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
 19Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 08:18 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
mgeorges's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Shawnee, KS
Posts: 1,363
I also suggest a turkey baster while vac'ing. I typically just disturb the top 1/4"-1/2" or so, helps it release any trapped particulate.

People get worried that if you really start rooting around in your substrate, you can disrupt the beneficial bacteria and disturb anoxic pockets. Honestly, I've never had an issue with either being a problem, even when tearing down a scape and doing a deep gravel vac'ing on the whole tank. There's parts of my substrate, currently, I simply can't "deep clean" because of plant mass, but in open sand areas, I'll occasionally do a deep gravel vac, just to remove any build up and because it's faster and easier than taking my time with a turkey baster. I use the turkey baster in the densely planted areas that I can't use the gravel vac effectively in.
Greggz, Quesenek and Leeatl like this.
mgeorges is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-23-2020, 12:54 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffww View Post
what are your nitrate levels? My rotala get this appearance with low co2 or high nitrates.

edit: I have a 22 long as well. I find it difficult to get a lot of red in the stems before they get so long they need to be trimmed. Nitrate limitation helps a lot in this case.
Flow has been a real issue with my 22 long. In a perfect world I'd have a filter for each side.

Anyways, nitrates are typically under 10 ppm or lower. In fact, when I say I fertilize I almost never dose nitrates either. Its just phosphate, potassium from potassium bicarbonate for kh levels, and then micros. The rotala were twice as long as you see now but have stopped growing as much since I turned the lights down to 75 from 100 and stopped fertilizing (thinking frets caused the algae). Maybe my aquasoil is finally running out of N or something.

Is it possible for a tank to be dirty with low nitrates and TDS (currently 230)? I'm getting a lot of BGA and GDA still. I've yet to clean the detritus though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeorges View Post
I also suggest a turkey baster while vac'ing. I typically just disturb the top 1/4"-1/2" or so, helps it release any trapped particulate.

People get worried that if you really start rooting around in your substrate, you can disrupt the beneficial bacteria and disturb anoxic pockets. Honestly, I've never had an issue with either being a problem, even when tearing down a scape and doing a deep gravel vac'ing on the whole tank. There's parts of my substrate, currently, I simply can't "deep clean" because of plant mass, but in open sand areas, I'll occasionally do a deep gravel vac, just to remove any build up and because it's faster and easier than taking my time with a turkey baster. I use the turkey baster in the densely planted areas that I can't use the gravel vac effectively in.
Ok, then I need to do a MAJOR detritus cleaning. I was running with the assu.ption that detritus is somewhat ok and to not touch the substrate.

I also thought that if my parameters are in check then my tank is clean. There mist be more to a tank being dirty related to the detritus.

It's either that or 60 par really is just way too much for my plant mass I guess.
Ddrizzle is online now  
post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-23-2020, 01:53 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Palm Bay
Posts: 535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ddrizzle View Post
Flow has been a real issue with my 22 long. In a perfect world I'd have a filter for each side.

Anyways, nitrates are typically under 10 ppm or lower. In fact, when I say I fertilize I almost never dose nitrates either. Its just phosphate, potassium from potassium bicarbonate for kh levels, and then micros. The rotala were twice as long as you see now but have stopped growing as much since I turned the lights down to 75 from 100 and stopped fertilizing (thinking frets caused the algae). Maybe my aquasoil is finally running out of N or something.

Is it possible for a tank to be dirty with low nitrates and TDS (currently 230)? I'm getting a lot of BGA and GDA still. I've yet to clean the detritus though.



Ok, then I need to do a MAJOR detritus cleaning. I was running with the assu.ption that detritus is somewhat ok and to not touch the substrate.

I also thought that if my parameters are in check then my tank is clean. There mist be more to a tank being dirty related to the detritus.

It's either that or 60 par really is just way too much for my plant mass I guess.
What fertilization method are you following?
I would recommend if you're dosing EI to dose for the targets each week using KNO3, KH2PO4, and K2SO4. For example if you have NPK targets of 10-4-20 then dose for those each week because EI is based around the idea of having a surplus of nutrients in the water.
Quesenek is offline  
 
post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 452
It's essentially EI but only 1/4 of what it calls for.

Btw I did a major detritus scrub and on all the surfaces and substrate yesterday and plan on doing it a couple more times this week. I'm also turning the light down to 2 hours a day for a week. I pulled off BGA off my glass. My god it was huge but luckily came off in mostly one piece with careful razor work.

I also counted my stems - about 20 in total. Someome above mentioned that 8 was too low. Well, I have 20 /shrug.
Ddrizzle is online now  
post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 08:03 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Jeffww's Avatar
 
PTrader: (10/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Albany, CA
Posts: 2,456
What's your GH and locale? You can try increasing CO2 and magnesium and see how that helps. There are unique challenges to getting good coloration in a 22 long. I have wrestled with it quite a bit. It is highly linked to the overall volume:surface area ratio of these low tanks.

Also, keep doing 50-60% water changes every week. I think you will find good improvement for the algae. Also make sure you are actually removing that much water. 50% volume change for me basically only leaves about 3" of water left in my 22 long.

edit: perhaps I should explain this better. Sorry if this seems esoteric but I think if you can understand this concept, things should make more sense.

Suppose you have a 20H and a 20L aquarium. The entire bottom of the tank is planted with Rotala. Now suppose that you have the same growth rate in both tanks. Which tank uses more nutrients? Of course the 20L because you have more planted surface area. Now, then which tank would require more dosing? Of course the tank with more plants. Thus, I argue that long aspect ratio tanks need higher levels (more ppm) per week. You also need to run higher concentrations of everything (CO2, Ca, Mg, Fe, NPK etc.) to give yourself more leeway in terms of bottoming out. The difference ends up coming to be about 20% more for the 20H and 20L analogy (by simple dimensional reduction of mass fertilizer per surface area). I also propose that CO2 is one of more difficult parameters to raise because of acute poisoning and the higher surface area:volume ratio means you lose a lot of the CO2 you put in to reach an elevated level.

Fluval Spec V
7x Microsynodontis sp (1)

10g Terrarium
1x Cranwelli Horned Frog
Jeffww is online now  
post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 08:24 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffww View Post
What's your GH and locale? You can try increasing CO2 and magnesium and see how that helps. There are unique challenges to getting good coloration in a 22 long. I have wrestled with it quite a bit. It is highly linked to the overall volume:surface area ratio of these low tanks.

Also, keep doing 50-60% water changes every week. I think you will find good improvement for the algae. Also make sure you are actually removing that much water. 50% volume change for me basically only leaves about 3" of water left in my 22 long.

edit: perhaps I should explain this better. Sorry if this seems esoteric but I think if you can understand this concept, things should make more sense.

Suppose you have a 20H and a 20L aquarium. The entire bottom of the tank is planted with Rotala. Now suppose that you have the same growth rate in both tanks. Which tank uses more nutrients? Of course the 20L because you have more planted surface area. Now, then which tank would require more dosing? Of course the tank with more plants. Thus, I argue that long aspect ratio tanks need higher levels (more ppm) per week. You also need to run higher concentrations of everything (CO2, Ca, Mg, Fe, NPK etc.) to give yourself more leeway in terms of bottoming out. The difference ends up coming to be about 20% more for the 20H and 20L analogy (by simple dimensional reduction of mass fertilizer per surface area). I also propose that CO2 is one of more difficult parameters to raise because of acute poisoning and the higher surface area:volume ratio means you lose a lot of the CO2 you put in to reach an elevated level.
Thanks and I get your 20L surface area idea. I just still cannot comprehend why I get the algae I do with them plant mass I have. I'm assuming I just need way more stem plants.

I stopped adding ferts as a test because when I tried adding MORE ferts I'd get even more alage (definitely green spot from the phosphate and quicker green dust reappearance after cleaning).

The best the tank has ever looked algae-wise was right after christmas when I had the light and co2 set to an hour a day when I was on vacation. No more algae on leaves or on the glass. However the rotala wasnt as red and shrunk a little. I put it back up to 5 hours at 60 par and this happens.
Ddrizzle is online now  
post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 05:54 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Jeffww's Avatar
 
PTrader: (10/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Albany, CA
Posts: 2,456
I would say dosing more and doing more water changes every week as well as cleaning the glass every week will improve your situation a lot. I also have (they are very big now) SAEs, some otos, and amano shrimp in my tank and the only algae I have is some spot algae and some BBA on old leaves that stays short as it is constantly grazed upon. Really though, water changes and cleaning is the best "free" option.
Quesenek likes this.

Fluval Spec V
7x Microsynodontis sp (1)

10g Terrarium
1x Cranwelli Horned Frog
Jeffww is online now  
post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 07:17 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
ipkiss's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: FL
Posts: 1,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ddrizzle View Post
Thanks and I get your 20L surface area idea. I just still cannot comprehend why I get the algae I do with them plant mass I have. I'm assuming I just need way more stem plants.

I stopped adding ferts as a test because when I tried adding MORE ferts I'd get even more alage (definitely green spot from the phosphate and quicker green dust reappearance after cleaning).

The best the tank has ever looked algae-wise was right after christmas when I had the light and co2 set to an hour a day when I was on vacation. No more algae on leaves or on the glass. However the rotala wasnt as red and shrunk a little. I put it back up to 5 hours at 60 par and this happens.
So, I'm not going to discount any of the previous advice as they are all important and far be it for me to be able to add anything beyond what you've read on advancedplantedtank already, but in my little corner of a tank, I feel your issue might be similar to what I went through a couple years back. Let's also analyze what you said too. 1 hour of light, no algae; 5 hours, algae. Well, clearly the plants are running out of something when you push them for 5 hours. @1 hour, the plant is getting all the nutrients/co2 it wants so, probably no algae. This is a sign that you should keep your feeding your plants and trying to figure out what they're missing. A red plant needs to be healthy first, before it rewards you with its scarlet blush. Well, great, you think, my "healthy" settling point is 1 hour, but that's not enough to redden the plant. Not only that, it's not enough VIEWING time. How I am I supposed to enjoy my tank? Red plants are such an enigma sometimes. Well, here's where I feel that:

It's not only the amount of light, but equally important, the timing.

I've read that par is roughly equal whether it's 5 hours of 60par or 3 hours of 100 par, but tell that to the lower leaves that's not getting the expected par due to uneven dropoff. As a fellow current satellite plus pro user, I can attest that there's a decent amount of dropoff from par based on the placement of the plant. There's only 1 row of lights! So, your red plant might be wanting the 60par at the base, but because its placed in the back, it's probably only getting eh, 30 at the base? If you shade it with another plant -- even less!

What does it mean? It means you're not giving enough light for 5 hours for a plant to get red, but you're definitely giving more than enough for the algae to get rampant.

How to get around this? What you need is a midday spike. As you're getting algae at 5 hours, try, say, 1 or 2 hours of 60par and the remaining period of eh, 20par just for your viewing pleasure. In so doing, you're sort of simulating only 1 hours of lighting while still being able to enjoy your tank. OK, let's say I sold you on the idea, how to do this with a current satellite plus pro? Well, the default programming is a bust as it has no ability to do that, so you may either have to make one of those custom controllers that send the IR codes to do it or you get a second unit or some other light and put it on a separate timer.

It sounds like I said two conflicting things just now. I suppose it sort of is. You're addressing two issues. Less light to cut algae, more light to push for reds. First, you have to get the plants healthy. That means cleaning and figuring out the feeding regimen and proper co2 distribution, etc. Getting the algae to stop growing. Then, when you have green healthy (mostly) algae free situations, you can start toying with increasing the spike intensity to trigger the reddening, and so on. You may find that you do need a second fixture after all to help with the light intensity and spread in the later stages.


Finally, I suppose there's also a cheat to get that amazing bunch of crimson stems. This ties into maintenance. As a stem plant grows, even in the best scenario, the bottoms will start looking ratty or lose their color. In such a case, you simply have to uproot, cut the bottoms, and replant the best looking section -- the top. Do this a few times, and if you have a tank that is conducive enough for the plant to not lose their bottom leaves by the time the tops need a trim again, you'll get a whole stem that's pretty good looking.
Quesenek and carlsj2012 like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ipkiss is online now  
post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 452
Lots to take in, thanks guys. I realize the basics yet cant get it right which is annoying me the most - Have light on enough to grow plants but not grow algae. Dont have too much excess ferts or grow algae.

Adding MORE ferts sounds so foreign to me because I would have thought excess ferts cause the algae from everything I've read. But not fertilizing has shown that BGA and GDA comes out faster. After the detritus I kicked up I am seriously wondering if I've been doing through enough water changes though.

As for the dual light setup and spikes, I've thought of that too... get a spike midday and then get much lower par for viewing pleasure. What I'm attempting now is to get the spike perfectly set in. Aiming for 2 hours of 60 par and co2. I've also started dosing again (light EI as I call it). Sadly the current led has so many features but NO way to add a ice curve throughout the day... its just on or off. I'm avoiding buy a second one for now.

Also, something I've observed before has shown up again now that I've switched back to my tap water instead of ro - my water was yellow when it read soft kh and gh. Even after adding a ton of both, my water was still slightly yellow. With my harder tap water, the water is clear again. I wonder how this will affect everything (no shrimp atm).
Ddrizzle is online now  
post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 11:33 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
ipkiss's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: FL
Posts: 1,278
i think the proper way to think about it is:

grow plants or grow algae.


everything you think of doing or changes to be made, needs to be in the perspective of making plants happy, and in time, algae just seems to go away. sounds like magic, but it does sort of work that way.

so, perhaps a step back is needed. like the others said -- and what you already started -- is a good idea. set an amount of ferts, 2 hrs of light and stick with it -- at least for a few weeks. do regular water changes, suck up detritus, remove algae, trim dead leaves. reinspect co2 delivery. be suspicious of inefficiencies. when the basics fail you, time to just do it over and over until something good shows.

all that other stuff i said can come later. as for the lighting schedule, do you fiddle with electronics like arduinos and the like? no? maybe it is time to part with the current and get something more programmable like a fluval 3.0.

but at the end of the day, theres people with gobs more par for many hours without fancy programming that are pulling this off. they just have the determination to do the necessary maintenance. super tidy, trimmed plants, regular consistent plant feeding, fastidious tank cleaning, etc.

as a maintenance slacker myself, i've either had to come up with these sneaky hacks of lighting schedules or just chide myself, try to inspire myself from this forum, youtube videos, grit my teeth, and go do some maintenance.
Quesenek likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ipkiss is online now  
post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 04:12 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Palm Bay
Posts: 535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ddrizzle View Post
Lots to take in, thanks guys. I realize the basics yet cant get it right which is annoying me the most - Have light on enough to grow plants but not grow algae. Dont have too much excess ferts or grow algae.

Adding MORE ferts sounds so foreign to me because I would have thought excess ferts cause the algae from everything I've read. But not fertilizing has shown that BGA and GDA comes out faster. After the detritus I kicked up I am seriously wondering if I've been doing through enough water changes though.

As for the dual light setup and spikes, I've thought of that too... get a spike midday and then get much lower par for viewing pleasure. What I'm attempting now is to get the spike perfectly set in. Aiming for 2 hours of 60 par and co2. I've also started dosing again (light EI as I call it). Sadly the current led has so many features but NO way to add a ice curve throughout the day... its just on or off. I'm avoiding buy a second one for now.

Also, something I've observed before has shown up again now that I've switched back to my tap water instead of ro - my water was yellow when it read soft kh and gh. Even after adding a ton of both, my water was still slightly yellow. With my harder tap water, the water is clear again. I wonder how this will affect everything (no shrimp atm).
If algae were a thing that high fert levels caused then my tank would be nothing but algae.

Some info of my findings on algae as a whole:
From my experience I get algae only when my tank has an ammonia source. This could be from having a dirty filter, a cycle situation, built up detritus/plant matter pretty much anything.
While the ammonia source is present in the tank, anything that keeps the plants alive also helps the algae to grow this is because algae is a plant also. However cutting out any of the stuff to keep the plants healthy will also impede treatment of algae.

Outside of hard to kill algae like staghorn, BBA, cladophora, green water which need some outside influence to fully kill off you want to get your plants growing well and they should take care of the algae.

Take my current situation with my new 55 gallon setup.
From my little spike in ammonia from a mini cycle I got a ton of green algae growth on everything, there is still a small level of ammonia/nitrite in the water (test kit may be wrong) however in the few days since I've been adding seachem stability to finish off the mini cycle my plants have killed all of the misc green algae off. The only thing left is the staghorn algae which I'm treating with H2O2 but even that has stopped spreading since getting the ammonia levels very low. I have changed nothing in the tank besides fixing the issue of the ammonia source.

To the topic at hand with the GDA is that you might want to get a UV sterilizer, I recommend this one green killing machine, run it for a week straight and then have it running for 4-6 hours a day I have mine running at night. This website helped me get rid of mine with the recommendation of using a UV sterilizer: How to Identify and Remove Green Dust Algae.

Your BGA should go away with EI KNO3 dosage (10-21ppm NO3 dosed each week) after you have done what you can to get the NO3 higher dose this ultralife BGA remover and it'll kill the BGA within a few days. If you don't fix the reason why the BGA was there to begin with it'll just come right back.
ipkiss and Asteroid like this.
Quesenek is offline  
post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 05:06 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipkiss View Post
i think the proper way to think about it is:

grow plants or grow algae.


everything you think of doing or changes to be made, needs to be in the perspective of making plants happy, and in time, algae just seems to go away. sounds like magic, but it does sort of work that way.

so, perhaps a step back is needed. like the others said -- and what you already started -- is a good idea. set an amount of ferts, 2 hrs of light and stick with it -- at least for a few weeks. do regular water changes, suck up detritus, remove algae, trim dead leaves. reinspect co2 delivery. be suspicious of inefficiencies. when the basics fail you, time to just do it over and over until something good shows.

all that other stuff i said can come later. as for the lighting schedule, do you fiddle with electronics like arduinos and the like? no? maybe it is time to part with the current and get something more programmable like a fluval 3.0.

but at the end of the day, theres people with gobs more par for many hours without fancy programming that are pulling this off. they just have the determination to do the necessary maintenance. super tidy, trimmed plants, regular consistent plant feeding, fastidious tank cleaning, etc.

as a maintenance slacker myself, i've either had to come up with these sneaky hacks of lighting schedules or just chide myself, try to inspire myself from this forum, youtube videos, grit my teeth, and go do some maintenance.
I'll probably end up buying a light with better curve options if that becomes a show stopper. Very interested to see how this goes and how hard I can push my plants with ferts in those two hours without getting algae.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quesenek View Post
If algae were a thing that high fert levels caused then my tank would be nothing but algae.

Some info of my findings on algae as a whole:
From my experience I get algae only when my tank has an ammonia source. This could be from having a dirty filter, a cycle situation, built up detritus/plant matter pretty much anything.
While the ammonia source is present in the tank, anything that keeps the plants alive also helps the algae to grow this is because algae is a plant also. However cutting out any of the stuff to keep the plants healthy will also impede treatment of algae.

Outside of hard to kill algae like staghorn, BBA, cladophora, green water which need some outside influence to fully kill off you want to get your plants growing well and they should take care of the algae.

Take my current situation with my new 55 gallon setup.
From my little spike in ammonia from a mini cycle I got a ton of green algae growth on everything, there is still a small level of ammonia/nitrite in the water (test kit may be wrong) however in the few days since I've been adding seachem stability to finish off the mini cycle my plants have killed all of the misc green algae off. The only thing left is the staghorn algae which I'm treating with H2O2 but even that has stopped spreading since getting the ammonia levels very low. I have changed nothing in the tank besides fixing the issue of the ammonia source.

To the topic at hand with the GDA is that you might want to get a UV sterilizer, I recommend this one green killing machine, run it for a week straight and then have it running for 4-6 hours a day I have mine running at night. This website helped me get rid of mine with the recommendation of using a UV sterilizer: How to Identify and Remove Green Dust Algae.

Your BGA should go away with EI KNO3 dosage (10-21ppm NO3 dosed each week) after you have done what you can to get the NO3 higher dose this ultralife BGA remover and it'll kill the BGA within a few days. If you don't fix the reason why the BGA was there to begin with it'll just come right back.
Interesting point on the ammonia. I havent been checking but it's currently at 0. I still have a lot of detritus to suck up and I've been doing 50% water changes every day this week to get at it.

Every time I pour water in to refill it seems to kick up more, but I'm already done sucking up! I have small squirted which have been helping in corners and areas my siphon cant reach but a legit turkey baster might be required.

And finally... I just want to post some of my bacopa crawling out of the side of my tank. I really like how stem plants look when they over grow!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20200127_205602_1580187996913.jpg
Views:	9
Size:	182.0 KB
ID:	892501  

Click image for larger version

Name:	20200127_205550_1580188004160.jpg
Views:	10
Size:	170.8 KB
ID:	892503  

Quesenek, ipkiss and carlsj2012 like this.
Ddrizzle is online now  
post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 05:51 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 452
Update:

I've kept the photoperiod to only 100% @ 2 hours a day and have been doing twice weekly water changes. I focus on kicking up detritus on the substrate with a little plastic dropper thing while I suck it up with the siphon. This has worked well, no algae after two solid weeks.

I then got amanos and remembered just how much they terrorize detritus. They literally ate away all of the dead plants in a dead zone I had before I could even get a water change in. That dead spot is a separate issue in the plant subforum and has been solved.

Finally, I've permanently switched over to tap water which has cleared my tank up from a yellow to a clear color. The water I realized was incredibly soft for months due to amazonia substrate, which keeps it yellow.

After all is said and done I'm feeling much better about my tank. The fertilizing is back on, light is in a safe spot to tune from and the tank looks clean. Thanks everyone!

Oh, as for red plants haha... I'll get to play with my lights and see if that helps... slowly...
Ddrizzle is online now  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome