Plant looks deplete of nutrition but been dosing daily - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 03:27 AM Thread Starter
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Plant looks deplete of nutrition but been dosing daily

Hi all,

I'm out of solutions of solving my tanks and need help. my 24" is 9 months old and been dosing the soil with ADA bottom plus sticks monthly and liquid fertilizer local made Macro and Micro daily. I'm started seeing signs of lack of nutrition on my plants ie: holes on leaves, darkening and crinkled on lower leaf and starting to die off. It's been a month that this happen and I thought I needed to dose a little more but still no sign of progression but only decrease. So what I do now is I'm dosing way too much than the label recommended for example the recommended dose says 2 pumps I dose 6. Still no sign of progression but no sign of algae neither. Does anybody have any idea what I did wrong?

Remark: I don't know if this is relevant. I just installed Eheim 2215 into a system a month ago, right around the time all these problem occurs. my assumption is to aim my suspicion at an Active Carbon Pad in the filter but I don't see people mentioning the problem of having them in the system as well.

Tank : 24"
Filtration : Eheim 2215
Light : Chihiros WRGB 8hrs (Siesta at ON4 OFF2 ON4)
Co2: 2-3 bps synchronized w/ lighting period
Chiller : Set at 24.5c

Water Perimeter:

PH: 6.8 (API master Kit)
KH: 9 (Tetra 6in1)
GH: 10 (Tetra 6in1)
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Tank info:
Tank: 60x30x32 cm.
Filtration: Eheim 2215
Light: Chihiros WRGB 60cm. (8Hrs.) w/ Dimmable Timer (Siesta setting at On4 Off2 On4)
Co2: 2-3 bps. (synchronized with lighting) w/Solenoid
Diffuser: Chihiros 20cm. Stainless Steel Diffuser
Substrate: ADA Amazonia
Fertilizer: Macro NPK (Local); Micro (Local); ADA Brighty Natural K
Live Stock: 17 Cardinals, 2 Amano Shrimps, 1 Otocinclus, 1 Siamese Algae Eater, 10+- Cherry Shrimps, 7 Horned Nerite Snails
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 04:11 AM
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Hi @Gridsystem,

Welcome to TPT!

I downloaded three of your four pictures. I enlarged and enhanced them and what I saw was "cupping" (leaf margins turned downward) on the leaves of the red plant in the second photo which suggests a possible lack of magnesium. However after I enlarged and enhanced that same photo I found this:


The arrow on the left is pointing to older leaves on the S. repens which show interveinal chlorosis (darker leaf veins with lighter interveinal area) occurring on the recently matured and older leaves. The arrow on the right is pointing to an older leaf transitioning from chlorosis to necrosis (dead tissue); the leaf directly above it is starting to show necrosis along the margins.

All of the symptoms indicate an issue with a mobile nutrient. And my suggestion would be to add some magnesium to the tank. Go to your local pharmacy and purchase some Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate / MgSO4*7H2O). Get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with no additives, scents, or perfumes. When you do your next water change add 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change, add 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added.

Now the hard part.......waiting. For the next four (4) weeks watch the new leaves as they emerge. Do not watch any existing leaves, they will not improve and my continue to decline. Do the new leaves look healthier, possibly greener and larger? As the new leaves mature to they remain healthy and do not form the "cupping" or the interveinal chlorosis? If so you are on the right track. Questions? Just ask! Hope this helps! -Roy

Quote:
II. Symptoms do not appear first or most severely on youngest leaves: Effect general on whole plant or localized on older, lower leaves.

C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is re-mobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, stems are brittle and have a tendency to curve upward. Stems are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely.
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 06:06 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Gridsystem,

Welcome to TPT!

I downloaded three of your four pictures. I enlarged and enhanced them and what I saw was "cupping" (leaf margins turned downward) on the leaves of the red plant in the second photo which suggests a possible lack of magnesium. However after I enlarged and enhanced that same photo I found this:


The arrow on the left is pointing to older leaves on the S. repens which show interveinal chlorosis (darker leaf veins with lighter interveinal area) occurring on the recently matured and older leaves. The arrow on the right is pointing to an older leaf transitioning from chlorosis to necrosis (dead tissue); the leaf directly above it is starting to show necrosis along the margins.

All of the symptoms indicate an issue with a mobile nutrient. And my suggestion would be to add some magnesium to the tank. Go to your local pharmacy and purchase some Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate / MgSO4*7H2O). Get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with no additives, scents, or perfumes. When you do your next water change add 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change, add 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added.

Now the hard part.......waiting. For the next four (4) weeks watch the new leaves as they emerge. Do not watch any existing leaves, they will not improve and my continue to decline. Do the new leaves look healthier, possibly greener and larger? As the new leaves mature to they remain healthy and do not form the "cupping" or the interveinal chlorosis? If so you are on the right track. Questions? Just ask! Hope this helps! -Roy
Wow!! thank you for a very informative recommendation, Roy. This is worth giving a try. I went back to look at the label of my local fert and I see no Magnesium in the solution. So, this might be it. A little FYI. There are new growth on POGOSTEMON HELFERI, Reineckii, Rotala Bonsai happening and currently they are looking fine but might end up as what you said it would be in the future. I will definitely come back for an update on this in a month or so.

By dosing Magnesium into the tank. How long should I be dosing? or this should be a procedure that will be include to my water change routine?

I'm learning something new today. Thank you very much, Roy. Have a great day

Tank info:
Tank: 60x30x32 cm.
Filtration: Eheim 2215
Light: Chihiros WRGB 60cm. (8Hrs.) w/ Dimmable Timer (Siesta setting at On4 Off2 On4)
Co2: 2-3 bps. (synchronized with lighting) w/Solenoid
Diffuser: Chihiros 20cm. Stainless Steel Diffuser
Substrate: ADA Amazonia
Fertilizer: Macro NPK (Local); Micro (Local); ADA Brighty Natural K
Live Stock: 17 Cardinals, 2 Amano Shrimps, 1 Otocinclus, 1 Siamese Algae Eater, 10+- Cherry Shrimps, 7 Horned Nerite Snails
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
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Back from after searching for Epsom Salt. I'm surprise that where I live, this is pretty hard to find. Let's say if I want an alternative, will ADA Green Brighty Minerals help solving this problem? Thanks
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Tank info:
Tank: 60x30x32 cm.
Filtration: Eheim 2215
Light: Chihiros WRGB 60cm. (8Hrs.) w/ Dimmable Timer (Siesta setting at On4 Off2 On4)
Co2: 2-3 bps. (synchronized with lighting) w/Solenoid
Diffuser: Chihiros 20cm. Stainless Steel Diffuser
Substrate: ADA Amazonia
Fertilizer: Macro NPK (Local); Micro (Local); ADA Brighty Natural K
Live Stock: 17 Cardinals, 2 Amano Shrimps, 1 Otocinclus, 1 Siamese Algae Eater, 10+- Cherry Shrimps, 7 Horned Nerite Snails
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 03:56 PM
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Hi @Gridsystem,

I see you are in Thailand. I have had the opportunity to visit SE Asia, it is a beautiful part of the world (although a little warm and humid for me - lol). I suspect you have a 'rainy' and 'dry' season where you live; which means that the mineral content in your water may vary substantially based upon the time of year. I suggest when you run out of the Tetra 6 IN 1 test strips that you pick up the API KH/GH test kit. It is more accurate and will help you track the level of calcium and magnesium in your tank.

When a nutrient deficiency is caused by a mobile nutrient it is common that the new growth looks fine. Why? Because the plant / stems are moving the nutrient that is lacking from older leaves to new growth....hence the term 'mobile'. As the new leaves mature the plant moves the lacking nutrient from those leaves to new leaves, this allows a plant to grow even if sufficient nutrients are lacking.

Adding magnesium will be part of your normal weekly water change routine.

I cannot find a listing for ADA Green Brighty Mineral ingredients, only that it contains "trace" nutrients; "trace" nutrients are boron (B), manganese (Mn), nickel (Ni), zinc (Zi), and a few others. Unfortunately magnesium, like calcium, is considered a secondary nutrient. I would save my money and purchase some Epsom Salt. If, when you test your water with an API GH test kit you find that the dGH is much lower than the 10.0 dGH indicated in your first post we may have to look at adding calcium to your tank as well however I see minimal symptoms of a calcium deficiency at this time. Hope this helps! -Roy
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Gridsystem,

I see you are in Thailand. I have had the opportunity to visit SE Asia, it is a beautiful part of the world (although a little warm and humid for me - lol). I suspect you have a 'rainy' and 'dry' season where you live; which means that the mineral content in your water may vary substantially based upon the time of year. I suggest when you run out of the Tetra 6 IN 1 test strips that you pick up the API KH/GH test kit. It is more accurate and will help you track the level of calcium and magnesium in your tank.

When a nutrient deficiency is caused by a mobile nutrient it is common that the new growth looks fine. Why? Because the plant / stems are moving the nutrient that is lacking from older leaves to new growth....hence the term 'mobile'. As the new leaves mature the plant moves the lacking nutrient from those leaves to new leaves, this allows a plant to grow even if sufficient nutrients are lacking.

Adding magnesium will be part of your normal weekly water change routine.

I cannot find a listing for ADA Green Brighty Mineral ingredients, only that it contains "trace" nutrients; "trace" nutrients are boron (B), manganese (Mn), nickel (Ni), zinc (Zi), and a few others. Unfortunately magnesium, like calcium, is considered a secondary nutrient. I would save my money and purchase some Epsom Salt. If, when you test your water with an API GH test kit you find that the dGH is much lower than the 10.0 dGH indicated in your first post we may have to look at adding calcium to your tank as well however I see minimal symptoms of a calcium deficiency at this time. Hope this helps! -Roy
You are most welcome to visit Thailand if you have a chance. Weather is much better during December, less humid. Especially this year, the weather is really good, Bangkok doesn't usually get cool weather that much mostly only 2 or 3 days tops in a year, but it's been 2 weeks already with a really good weather.

I finally got Epsom salt and GH/KH test kit as you suggested.

Current Status of water peremeter:
PH=6.8 or 7 (somewhere in between to my eyes)
KH=5
GH=9

Now is the waiting part. I will let you know in a month. Thank you very much, for a very useful knowledge, Roy.

Tank info:
Tank: 60x30x32 cm.
Filtration: Eheim 2215
Light: Chihiros WRGB 60cm. (8Hrs.) w/ Dimmable Timer (Siesta setting at On4 Off2 On4)
Co2: 2-3 bps. (synchronized with lighting) w/Solenoid
Diffuser: Chihiros 20cm. Stainless Steel Diffuser
Substrate: ADA Amazonia
Fertilizer: Macro NPK (Local); Micro (Local); ADA Brighty Natural K
Live Stock: 17 Cardinals, 2 Amano Shrimps, 1 Otocinclus, 1 Siamese Algae Eater, 10+- Cherry Shrimps, 7 Horned Nerite Snails
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 05:25 PM
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Hi @Gridsystem,

With a dGH of 9.0 and a dKH of 5.0 I believe you should have sufficient calcium in your water, the magnesium I suggested should improve your issues. Let us know how thing progress! -Roy
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Gridsystem,

Quote:
II. Symptoms do not appear first or most severely on youngest leaves: Effect general on whole plant or localized on older, lower leaves.

C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is re-mobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, stems are brittle and have a tendency to curve upward. Stems are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely.
Thanks for sharing this, Roy. Do you have a link to where this great info on nutrient deficiencies came from?
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 11:41 PM
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Hi @Desert Pupfish,

Sorry, the book this came from is no longer available.

Roy_________
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