what deficiency in my rotala macrandra - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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what deficiency in my rotala macrandra

Check the photos pls and help me to identify the deficiency. My rotala is growing fast, and the top site it's look nice but the bottom, as you see the leaves have holes and at the end the shreat. It looks like a mobile element but I'm not sure.
The plant is near the Co2 exit to be sure for CO2,
and is underneath the lights.
300 lt
4◊ T5 39W lamps 8 hours
NO3 = 20 and up
PO4 = 4.5 add per week
K = 20 ppm
Ph from 7.4 drop to 6.1
KH= 2
GH= 8
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post #2 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 10:32 PM
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My guess is unknown Ca, Mg, trace elements, and unstable CO2. Was this plant moved in here or is it already replanted top grown here under the same conditions? Can you find your PAR light intensity with Light Calculator?


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post #3 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-26-2019, 02:44 AM Thread Starter
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My Mg was 30 ppm and my Ca 15 ppm.
I try to lower the Mg to 10 ppm these days.
As for trace elements I dose Fe=0.35 ppm , Mn=0.038, B=0.027, Zn=0.008 per week.
the plant was always there, I just cut the tops and plant them near.

CO2 is working with PH controller and is working with consistency.

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post #4 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-26-2019, 02:33 PM
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Not sure how you lowering your Mg but if you can lower it to > 0 < 5 ppm and Ca 20 Ė 30 ppm. Your trace elements Fe 0.35 ppm, Mn 0.038, B 0.027, Zn 0.008 per week is incomplete. The usual, when Fe is dosed at 0.35 ppm, is Mn 0.1 ppm, B 0.065 ppm, Zn 0.07 ppm, Mo 0.003 ppm, Cu 0.005 and optional Ni 0.00035 ppm, dosed in daily instalments.

I see discus fish on your pictures, if fed well then you donít need to add any nitrogen and phosphate. Only 20 Ė 30 ppm K, trace elements and Ca with Mg. Because of the large fish you need periodic large water changes to keep water clean.

Also what would help is keeping plants shorter so more light can get to the bottom with less shading.

Hi
Here you can see how your trace element mix is different than the rest of the most commonly used products.
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post #5 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 04:09 AM Thread Starter
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Actually I make a dilution with RO water and tap water. This the way I fix my Mg.
As for the feeding is not so much, so after many tests I found out, by adding
NO3 =11 ppm
PO4 = 4.5 ppm
Fe = 0.35
per week I have the amounts of fertilizers I want in my tank.
before the 50% water change, I have
NO3= 25 ppm
PO4 = 1 ppm
Fe = 0.1 ppm
after the water change
NO3 = 10 ppm
PO4 = 0.6 ppm
Fe = 0.05 ppm

The only thing remaining is to get higher my macros.
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post #6 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 04:24 AM
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What is your water source Ca, Mg and KH?
What do you use to increase K?
What product is your trace element mix?
How often do you do your 50% water change?


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post #7 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
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My Ca, Mg, and KH I get them from the tap water. 2 ltr of my tap water with 18 ltr RO water I have
Mg = 12ppm
Ca= 15 ppm (I add some more Ca with fert.)
KH = 2
I do water change once a week. 50%
My trace CSM+B are from aqua plants care company.

As for potassium I found always 20 ppm and above, although I add only 8 ppm from KNO3 and KH2PO4 so I think I have issues with K uptake.

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post #8 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 04:42 PM
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NO3 and PO4
With discus fish you don’t need to dose NO3 and PO4, the fish produce enough. If your test kits read anything more than zero, assuming you calibrated them with RO water, then it is accumulated concentration over the plant’s needs.

CO2
CO2 drop of 7.4 – 6.1 = 1.3 pH seems alright, assuming the whole photoperiod.

Light
You said 4 x T5 39W 8 hours, 300 L aquarium so it looks like ADA 120-H, 295 L, 78 gall, 47” x 18” x 24”, 120 cm x 45 cm x 60 cm. If these are T5 HO 5” above water then you have 64 PAR. This is good light as long as plants are not too dense, need to keep them shorter, especially now around the macrandra.

KH
2 dKH is perfect

GH
15 ppm Ca = 2.1 dGH
30 ppm Mg = 6.9 dGH
Total 9 dGH

Having 30 ppm Mg and 15 ppm Ca is not good. So when you start new mix with RO to get 12 ppm Mg and 15 ppm Ca, you may need to add more Ca up to 45 ppm Ca total with CaSO4. If I was in this situation I would use 100% RO because you cannot be sure what comes from tap seasonally and otherwise. The 10% tap is not worth the unknown. With pure RO you can add 5 ppm Mg with MgSO4, 20 ppm Ca with CaSO4 and baking soda NaHCO3 to 2 dKH.

K
You can add K to 30 ppm with K2SO4 once at water change and not to worry about it during the week.

TE
You said the trace element product comes from aqua plants care company and is CSM+B. This is not CSM+B because the ratios you posted about it are different than real CSM+B. So I think we need to pay attention here because plants will not grow well without proper trace elements. Aside from that, I would change light period from 8 to 7 hours. It may grow healthier plants when the trace elements are not solved yet.


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post #9 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
TE
You said the trace element product comes from aqua plants care company and is CSM+B. This is not CSM+B because the ratios you posted about it are different than real CSM+B. So I think we need to pay attention here because plants will not grow well without proper trace elements. Aside from that, I would change light period from 8 to 7 hours. It may grow healthier plants when the trace elements are not solved yet.
I am using PPS-PRO but I made some modifications. (N is 1:1 Urea and Nitrates)
I am using unchelated Micros except Fe-DTPA with kh=5 gh=8 water. (CO2 24/7 at ph=6.4-6.5)

How would you adjust Micro ratios given hard water and unchelated trace(except Fe)?

Also currently I have issues with Algae if lights are on too long (Fuzz Algae on old leaves and GDA on hardscape). So I have been using ~100 par at only 4 hours.

Have you experimented with 8 hour at 50 par versus 4 hours at 100 par? (For getting a better red out of ludwigia palustris)?

I'll move this to my journal if necessary just saw your post and I thought I'd ask here.


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post #10 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 10:32 PM
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I am using PPS-Pro but I made some modifications. (N is 1:1 Urea and Nitrates)
Yes, few years back this combination of urea with NO3 was popular, NH4 with NO3 also. However, if we think about it, NO3 will appear in the water column regardless due to nitrogen oxidation. The question is why dose NO3 when portion of urea we dose will end up as NO3 anyway?

Some time ago I have added Urea section to my PPS website where I describe a direct replacement of PPS-Pro with PPS-Pro Urea for people who want to try it. It has the same elemental ratios and concentrations, only the nitrogen form comes in organic urea molecule instead of KNO3.



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I am using unchelated Micros except Fe-DTPA with kh=5 gh=8 water. (CO2 24/7 at ph=6.4-6.5)
How would you adjust Micro ratios given hard water and unchelated trace(except Fe)?
I donít know anybody who knows the answer. There are people experimenting with non-chelated trace elements for three years now or longer, changing rations and concentrations up and down and back again and still not finding it.

Personally, I used EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX for very long time without issues. Then I added Zn and Ni to it and some plants responded positively, I named it Upgraded CSM+B / Trace Mix and I use it since.

It was always obvious that plants donít need KH to be happy, even though I had to go through hell for posting it, I continued. These days, after a million failed attempts in hard water regions, we know high KH is detrimental to plants.

I never advised anyone and never will this because of safety reasons, but you are a chemist and you know what you are doing. Check this thread, in my last post #68 I attached a picture of the results of pH drop by 1 dKH for a reference. Credit and thanks to @SpringHalo for creating the HCl Calculator. I use diluted acid and 90 gallon aquarium for the pH drop, it is accurate.

For every 1 dKH drop we get 12.7 ppm Cl2 increase. I thought, if I use my tap water and drop KH from 5 to 1 degree I get an increase of 51 ppm of Cl2 (yes, the increase is not linear to drop rate), plus the existing tap Cl2 of 27 ppm, I get 78 ppm of Cl2. That may not go well with my plants, I said.

Well, I tried. I could never grow plants as nicely in local tap before as now after lowering KH to 1 degree. It is still the same tap water minus the KH. For this test I used 125 gallon aquarium that was used to 1 dKH water from RO and light intensity in hundreds of PAR, the highest in the hobby. Result? Plants do not complain, they didnít even notice the change.

( For everybody here: Please do not change KH directly in the aquarium. It needs to be done in a separate reservoir, aerated for 24 hours and KH retested before use. )

Quote:
Also currently I have issues with Algae if lights are on too long (Fuzz Algae on old leaves and GDA on hardscape). So I have been using ~100 par at only 4 hours.

Have you experimented with 8 hour at 50 par versus 4 hours at 100 par?
Yes, I prefer the strongest light intensity I can get for shorter period of time. I have the strongest light in the hobby, undetectable PO4 and clean glass. Very strong light makes everything more dynamic, active, colourful and healthy. If you find the main photoperiod too short, add viewing lights with lower PAR.


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post #11 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 01:01 AM
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Do you have any pics of the entire tank? Are all plants doing poorly, or just the Macranda?

Is your primary focus on plants or the Discus? What's best for one may not be for the other.

In general, Rotala Macranda's should be pretty easy to keep. Looks like you have decent light and CO2. I assume with Discus you must stay on top of tank maintenance.

My first guess would the CSM+B if that is what you are dosing. I would try cutting it way back and see how the Macranda responds. If it improves, I would look into alternatives for micros (DIY custom preferred).

And I noticed your said you dose 4.5 ppm P per week, but the reading at the end of the week is 1.0 ppm. What is your substrate?

As to macros, my experience has been that Macranda's prefer richer dosing than other Rotalas. I have a heavy fish load, but also dose NO3 and PO4, as fish waste has never been enough to keep these species happy. So my second thought would be to increase NO3 and PO4 dosing and see what happens.

But to me, the issue with your tank is the Discus. They are more sensitive to NO3 than most, so I would consult with other Discus keepers as to how they combine Discus/Plants.

Here is my Macranda from this afternoon. High light, high CO2, inert substrate, custom micros, and fairly rich macro dosing. Like I said, should be a fairly easy one to keep happy.



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post #12 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 01:04 AM
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Yes, few years back this combination of urea with NO3 was popular, NH4 with NO3 also. However, if we think about it, NO3 will appear in the water column regardless due to nitrogen oxidation. The question is why dose NO3 when portion of urea we dose will end up as NO3 anyway?
The assumption is that plants can get some of the Ammonia before the bacteria do, I am dosing very small amounts daily <0.2ppm daily. Barr wrote a paper about plant preference for Ammonia in small doses, i have also read a paper that Ammonium mitigates problems with high kh in strawberry plants. Also @happi is a strong proponent of Urea/Ammonia so I thought I would try it.

Neither of those sources are definitive or conclusive, so I could always go back to pure NO3 one day. I have often wondered if Urea/Ammonia could cause the little bit of Fuzz algae I see on some of my plants and their old leaves.

Quote:
Some time ago I have added Urea section to my PPS website where I describe a direct replacement of PPS-Pro with PPS-Pro Urea for people who want to try it. It has the same elemental ratios and concentrations, only the nitrogen form comes in organic urea molecule instead of KNO3.
Yes I did some similar calculations except I am dosing 1.13ppm total N weekly(2.5ppm KNO3 and 2.5ppm(KNO3 Equivalent) weekly. (Half of everything in this table)


I was initially at (2.26N) (10ppm NO3 equivalent) and 0.32P(1ppm PO4 Equivalent) but I was seeing too much algae so I dialed it back to half(both macro and micros) and since then(~month) haven't seen any spot algae on the glass and not much on plants either. I dose 1/7 of the weekly amount daily.

Quote:
I don’t know anybody who knows the answer. There are people experimenting with non-chelated trace elements for three years now or longer, changing ratios and concentrations up and down and back again and still not finding it.
Well @burr740 and the high dosing 'dutch tank' people certainly are having success with non chelated Micros but my tank and dosing of Macros is much leaner and water much harder than theirs that is why I asked you.
I beleive too much Fe causes many wrong things in my tank(like hair algae) so I am keeping it as lean as possible. Overall my tap water makes it very difficult to dial in Ferts. Pogostemon Erectus and Rotala Rotundifolia still branch when they get near the top without being trimmed. I can't get the wine red out of Ludwigia Palustris either although it seems they get darker if I let them grow longer before trimming.
Quote:
Personally, I used EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX
Well I like the control of measuring out my own fertilizer and not having potential uniformity issues but its a possibility for the future.
I could also just buy some EDTA and pretty much have the same and be able to control Micros better but before doing that I should just go to RODI water first.

Quote:
It was always obvious that plants don’t need KH to be happy, even though I had to go through hell for posting it, I continued. These days, after a million failed attempts in hard water regions, we know high KH is detrimental to plants.
I have had loads of problems with even my moderate kh=5, that is why I am strongly considering a $400 RODI system, its just annoying to do the installation, drill holes in copper drain pipes, buy a bladder tank for under my sink , when I may move in 6 months.

Quote:
I never advised anyone and never will this because of safety reasons, but you are a chemist and you know what you are doing.
I have burned many holes in lab coats cleaning glassware with HCL or NaOH in my lab days but I don't find HCL all that bad and I was dealing with 5M HCL much stronger than Muriatic Acid. But to lower kH I'd rather just go with RODI water no need to mess with HCL/Muriatic acid in my kitchen for a 17G tank! Based on my tap water report(and old copper pipes) I may have too much Copper in my water or other toxins so I'd rather just control everything than just lower kH. I may have no choice and just go with RODI water soon as I feel like even with many fertilizer tweaks many plants will still not be happy with my tap water.

Quote:
Yes, I prefer the strongest light intensity I can get for shorter period of time. I have the strongest light in the hobby, undetectable PO4 and clean glass. Very strong light makes everything more dynamic, active, colourful and healthy. If you find the main photoperiod too short, add viewing lights with lower PAR.
I am not worried about the viewing period, I am running a Twinstar 600S on a dimmer so I run my 4 hours at 50% intensity ~100par at substrate on a timer. Then when I want to view the tank I can run the light at 10% manually for as long as I like.

I guess you just confirmed what I was doing already, short photoperiod at high par seems better.


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post #13 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 02:31 AM
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Plants taking NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium before the bacteria is a major plus for plants. Plantís best nitrogen source is just that. If they donít have it they go for NO3 nitrate. The best part as I mentioned before, is plants take NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium 24 hours a day, unlike NO3 nitrate only during the day. This is why urea or fish waste (NH3 / NH4) are such good options to supply nitrogen to plants.

Dosing urea works very well when there is not enough nitrogen produced by fish. Urea supplies not only NH4 but also carbon, CO2. Plants love it. Any urea overdose can be monitored by detecting NO3 in the water column.

Both, ADA Aqua Design Amano and Seachem use urea as a source of nitrogen.

Quote:
I have often wondered if Urea/Ammonia could cause the little bit of Fuzz algae I see on some of my plants and their old leaves.
Absolutely not. What you may see is when those are dosed plants kick into higher nutrient demand and something might be in short supply, short term or long term. This is when plantís health and immunity is compromised and algae takes over.

You are talking about red plants. They turn redder or red when they are not nitrogen overdosed and are getting sufficient light intensity. Even some green plants can do it.

CSM+B and uniformity issues.
Well, it is quite possible that some sources might be accidently compromised. We donít know what resellers do or how they do the B additions to CSM. But, when we talk about the EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX we can be sure it is done properly and professionally. It is being manufactured to the specifications and not modified in any way by third party. Nobody is adding anything to it, it is a solid product.

For the light, I never had problems with high light intensity, 300 Ė 400 PAR no issues, thousands of PAR in upper areas no issues. What breaks the balance is duration, it may become too much accumulated light energy per day causing the problems.

And for the OP fitos100, you need to get more light to the macrandra lower parts at the substrate to keep it solid.


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post #14 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 01:46 PM
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This Rotala macrandra,
has never seen any dosed N nitrogen or P phosphorus in any form, only fish waste.

Water column parameters are 4 ppm NO3, undetectable PO4, 30 ppm K, 20 – 35 ppm Ca, 5 – 8 ppm Mg, 1 dKH. Daily dose 0.01 ppm Fe(TE) EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX and custom modified with Zn and Ni to Upgraded CSM+B / Trace Mix. Light source very intense, 350 PAR at the plant tops, 4 hours a day with additional viewing LED lights. Substrate inert.

Rotala macrandra



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post #15 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
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Water column parameters are 4 ppm NO3, undetectable PO4, 30 ppm K, 20 – 35 ppm Ca, 5 – 8 ppm Mg, 1 dKH. Daily dose 0.01 ppm Fe(TE) EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX and custom modified with Zn and Ni to Upgraded CSM+B / Trace Mix. Light source very intense, 350 PAR at the plant tops, 4 hours a day with additional viewing LED lights. Substrate inert.
In your original formula for Plant Prod or CSM+B Zn was 0.4%.
But now in upgraded, Zn has been increased from 0.4% to 1.4% a 3.5X increase.

Could you please explain the evolution and reasoning for the change as I was using the old Ratio.


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