what deficiency in my rotala macrandra - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #31 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 04:45 AM
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Your next batch project.
Are these charts 'normalized', e.g.; my doses are daily, but do the Tropica doses you show represent their dosing on a daily basis? When I went through my initial comparisons, the normalized daily dosing was much closer in Mn and Cu area, but I think my Fe was much higher.
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post #32 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 05:05 AM
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Are these charts 'normalized', e.g.; my doses are daily, but do the Tropica doses you show represent their dosing on a daily basis? When I went through my initial comparisons, the normalized daily dosing was much closer in Mn and Cu area, but I think my Fe was much higher.
This one?
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Last edited by Edward; 07-30-2019 at 12:38 AM. Reason: New chart
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post #33 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 06:46 PM
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This one?
I don’t see it. Just taking Tropica as an example:

They recommend a base starting point of 6ml each of Specialised and Premium per week for 50L. This results in a daily ppm dose of Mn: 0.01343, B: 0.00143, Cu: 0.00200, Mo: 0.00057 and Zn: 0.00057 (from Rotalabutterfly).

Using iron as the index (as we like to do - I think incorrectly) and increasing iron to .1 ppm daily, this results in a Tropica daily ppm dosing of Mn: 0.0566, B: 0.0060, Cu: 0.0084, Mo: 0.0024 and Zn: 0.0024.

None of the above values match the chart. Where are we disconnected?

Last edited by Deanna; 07-29-2019 at 06:58 PM. Reason: add
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post #34 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 07:38 PM
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https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php
50 L
Tropica Plant Growth Specialized
Result of my dose
6 ml

ppm
0.0828 Fe
0.0468 Mn
0.0048 B
0.0072 Cu
0.0024 Mo
0.0024 Zn

All of the weekly above values match my chart when divided by 7 days. Where are we disconnected?


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post #35 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 07:53 PM
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All of the weekly above values match my chart when divided by 7 days. Where are we disconnected?
It's in the doubling: I double those values. Tropica recommends the same dosing for both the Specialised and Premium products and, I assume, they mean for both to be used in a tank and have subsequently accounted for that in the duplicate micro dosing. I see in your chart that you indicate "or" as opposed to "and", regarding the two products. That's the disconnect.

So, the chart is daily and the other micros packages should be fine and, going back a few posts, yes: this more recent chart is the normalized one I was asking about.
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post #36 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 08:13 PM
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What worries me is your dosing 0.1 ppm Fe(TE) daily and doing 30 % weekly water changes. I would expect accumulation of trace elements to unkind levels.


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post #37 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 09:09 PM
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What worries me is your dosing 0.1 ppm Fe(TE) daily and doing 30 % weekly water changes. I would expect accumulation of trace elements to unkind levels.
They are safe levels (good long-term health), but I do intend reducing them each month and watching the response, as I think the traces are a little too heavy. Remember: these are mainly not chelated metals, but I worry about my substrate. you may recall that I've been on a year-long journey coming down from EI levels and have only recently felt comfortable with the overall macro reduction (N, P, K, Ca, Mg and S). Traces are next.

However, in case anyone doubts the potential for toxicity in traces, I can relate the following: several months ago, when I was playing with the timer on my autodoser, I accidentally double-dosed the daily amounts you see in my previous post for a week. The result was a sudden halt to growth and BBA covering the stems. New growth was badly stunted and older leaves were severely bent down at the tips. I wasn't sure that it wasn't the beginning of a tailspin. Who knows which, if not all, micros were the bad actors, but there was certainly a toxic and/or blocking of other nutrients effect. I was surprised at how rapidly this occurred.
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post #38 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 09:53 PM
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Tropica recommends the same dosing for both the Specialised and Premium products
I never dosed both how did you draw the conclusion that they reccomend using both?


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post #39 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 10:36 PM
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I never dosed both how did you draw the conclusion that they reccomend using both?
You might be right. One contains N and P, the other doesn't. May be that they are saying either or, but not both - they don't say either way. Might be worth contacting them.

When I first started looking at Tropica, I relied a lot on their testimonial section, where they show various tanks and parameters. In nearly all of them, they list both products being used in equal amounts.

Seachem recommends both the Flourish (comp) and then Trace to supplement the Flourish.

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post #40 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 01:24 AM
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For the light, I never had problems with high light intensity, 300 – 400 PAR no issues, thousands of PAR in upper areas no issues. What breaks the balance is duration, it may become too much accumulated light energy per day causing the problems.
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I keep reading this statement, you, Dennis Wong, others, but it is so abstract and an unobtainable to me. I am meticulous with my husbandry by my tank balance is fragile I can't kick it into overdrive like that or I'll get deficiencies or algae. I am hoping with RO/DI water that things will be a little more forgiving. With my hard water I have to keep fertilizer lean or face algae or Lythraecae issues. Without more ferts I know I can't just pump up my lights to max (I could get 200par+).
Have you tried the stunning 200 PAR light running for a short period of time? It’s not crazy light as some think, it’s achievable. Start with three hours in the mid or the end of the day, the rest of the period low medium light. You need snails, do you have any? I love Red Ramshorn snails. High light systems have either snails and shrimps, or toxic fertilizer levels to keep periphyton dead. It will not work without it, plants must be crystal clean to have a direct unobstructed contact with water.

When do you want to start?


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post #41 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 08:52 PM
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Have you tried the stunning 200 PAR light running for a short period of time?
Yes and I get GDA really quickly on hardscape at anywhere close to those levels. This tank is not full of stems its not an appropriate case for high light.

Also I would cover my Anubias and Buces with Algae if I left that kind of intensity, and likely would never be able to get rid of the algae without cutting off months worth of growth.

I only run my light 4 hours a day as it is now. For viewing I run light at about 20 par(10%).

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I love Red Ramshorn snails
I have nerites, horned nerites, RCS and Amanos in the tank, Otos, and a nano pleco. None of them eat my GSA or fuzz algae on leaves I usually just have to cut off all the 'fuzzed' leaves luckily there aren't that many and they all were from a deficiency in the tank which I have corrected.
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post #42 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 09:28 PM
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None of them eat my GSA or fuzz algae on leaves I usually just have to cut off all the 'fuzzed' leaves luckily there aren't that many and they all were from a deficiency in the tank which I have corrected.
I, too, like and have used red ramshorns effectively. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending upon if you’re a ramshorn in my tank), they all died out for lack of food. For algae on plants, I have found a way to utilize Oto’s and true SAE’s. They seem to like dead algae species that they wouldn’t normally touch when the algae is alive. The trick is killing this algae without killing the fish or going through the troublesome spot-treatment methods.

To do this, I create an isolation room inside the tank, with an inverted clear container covering sections of plants, and having high circulation from a cheap little pump (wand and strainer removed from this little internal filter). Into this contained section of swirling water, I inject 7 ml / gallon of H2O2 with a commercial syringe and allow it to circulate for an hour. The opening of this ‘cone’ sits on the substrate and covers whichever section of the tank that I choose. After the hour, any non-decomposed H2O2 is diluted harmlessly into the rest of the tank when I remove the cone. Doing this protects the fauna from the effects of the H2O2 (and I have killed many a fish with H2O2 in years past).

The container I use has a 7” x 7” opening and is 9” high, but you can choose any size that you want for your tank. It will float (if it’s plastic), so it will have to be weighed down. I use four, 3.5 oz, fishing tackle weights. The syringe will also float out of the hole, so I cover the hole with one of the weights when I remove the syringe. No need to worry about H2O2 escaping through this hole, since the hole is too small to cause a significant loss.
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post #43 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 09:58 PM
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I, too, like and have used red ramshorns effectively. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending upon if you’re a ramshorn in my tank), they all died out for lack of food.
Too bad because the red ones are beautiful fluorescent bright red bodies and shells. When they are first introduced they get busy and clean up everything to perfection. But later when they have nothing left to eat they need to be fed. I give them frozen chopped spinach to keep them healthy and they look happy here in 5 pH and 20 ppm Ca water.
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The trick is killing this algae without killing the fish or going through the troublesome spot-treatment methods.

To do this, I create an isolation room inside the tank, with an inverted clear container covering sections of plants, and having high circulation from a cheap little pump (wand and strainer removed from this little internal filter). Into this contained section of swirling water, I inject 7 ml / gallon of H2O2 with a commercial syringe and allow it to circulate for an hour. The opening of this ‘cone’ sits on the substrate and covers whichever section of the tank that I choose. After the hour, any non-decomposed H2O2 is diluted harmlessly into the rest of the tank when I remove the cone. Doing this protects the fauna from the effects of the H2O2 (and I have killed many a fish with H2O2 in years past).

The container I use has a 7” x 7” opening and is 9” high, but you can choose any size that you want for your tank. It will float (if it’s plastic), so it will have to be weighed down. I use four, 3.5 oz, fishing tackle weights. The syringe will also float out of the hole, so I cover the hole with one of the weights when I remove the syringe. No need to worry about H2O2 escaping through this hole, since the hole is too small to cause a significant loss.
Do you have any pictures? It sounds interesting.


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post #44 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 10:23 PM
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I, too, like and have used red ramshorns effectively. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending upon if you’re a ramshorn in my tank), they all died out for lack of food. For algae on plants, I have found a way to utilize Oto’s and true SAE’s. They seem to like dead algae species that they wouldn’t normally touch when the algae is alive. The trick is killing this algae without killing the fish or going through the troublesome spot-treatment methods. [

To do this, I create an isolation room inside the tank, with an inverted clear container covering sections of plants, and having high circulation from a cheap little pump (wand and strainer removed from this little internal filter). Into this contained section of swirling water, I inject 7 ml / gallon of H2O2 with a commercial syringe and allow it to circulate for an hour. The opening of this ‘cone’ sits on the substrate and covers whichever section of the tank that I choose. After the hour, any non-decomposed H2O2 is diluted harmlessly into the rest of the tank when I remove the cone. Doing this protects the fauna from the effects of the H2O2 (and I have killed many a fish with H2O2 in years past).

The container I use has a 7” x 7” opening and is 9” high, but you can choose any size that you want for your tank. It will float (if it’s plastic), so it will have to be weighed down. I use four, 3.5 oz, fishing tackle weights. The syringe will also float out of the hole, so I cover the hole with one of the weights when I remove the syringe. No need to worry about H2O2 escaping through this hole, since the hole is too small to cause a significant loss.
Would you happen to have a photo? not sure how you circulate under the container.
7ml/Gallon H2O2 I guess it doesn't bother the plants(like Buces and Anubias) only the algae(?).

I thought about just removing any plants with fuzz on them into a seperate 5 gallon bucket and treating them for a few days with Excel then returning them to my scape.


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post #45 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 10:44 PM
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Do you have any pictures? It sounds interesting.
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Would you happen to have a photo?
Here are the components:

The pump: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Pull the wand and strainer off and all you are left with is the little pump in the center. Attach that (with the suction cups) near the top and inside the container so that the output is parallel to the substrate, creating a vortex that extends down to the substrate.

The container I use: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Drill a tiny hole in the top of the container for the syringe needle to enter.

The syringe: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The H2O2: that's a secret.

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I guess it doesn't bother the plants(like Buces and Anubias) only the algae(?).
It certainly bothers the algae, but I have no Buce or Anubias. I'm sure the algae would be destroyed at lower dosing, but I just go for the overkill.
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