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post #16 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 03:28 PM
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Plants taking NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium before the bacteria is a major plus for plants. Plantís best nitrogen source is just that. If they donít have it they go for NO3 nitrate. The best part as I mentioned before, is plants take NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium 24 hours a day, unlike NO3 nitrate only during the day. This is why urea or fish waste (NH3 / NH4) are such good options to supply nitrogen to plants.
I was under the impression plants can uptake and store nutrients when lights are on or off and it doesn't matter when you dose. Could you please provide a source that supports your statement, that is an interesting difference.

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Dosing urea works very well when there is not enough nitrogen produced by fish. Urea supplies not only NH4 but also carbon, CO2. Plants love it. Any urea overdose can be monitored by detecting NO3 in the water column.
I was under the impression Urea breaks down first to Ammonia so if anything I would be concerned with the Ammonia levels as to not cause a Bacterial or Algae bloom or poison fish.

It has been suggested to me that my entire source of N could be Urea but I have not tried that yet. What do you think the safe limit for concentration of Urea is that you can dose at one time?

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Both, ADA Aqua Design Amano and Seachem use urea as a source of nitrogen.
It is suspected Tropica uses the reduced N source as well.

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You are talking about red plants. They turn redder or red when they are not nitrogen overdosed and are getting sufficient light intensity. Even some green plants can do it.
Light, Nitrogen Levels, Fe Levels, and general health of the plant(I suspect the imbalance in P or K caused problems for color as well), and maturity of the leaves.

It seems my Ludwigia Palustris colors up more on larger mature leaves. I know it is not as simple as lower Nitrogen or increasing light I wish it were. (see my Journal).


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CSM+B and uniformity issues.
Are you saying they dissolve all the elements to mix and then dry the solution to get uniform mixing? Otherwise I don't know how they could mix big batches uniformly for our purposes. The original CSM was meant as a bulk fertilizer, that was my concern, not the concentration of B.

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But, when we talk about the EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX we can be sure it is done properly and professionally. It is being manufactured to the specifications and not modified in any way by third party. Nobody is adding anything to it, it is a solid product.
If it is produced for the Aquarium hobby and meant to be dosed at low the concentrations that we do I beleive that product would not have the same issues.

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For the light, I never had problems with high light intensity, 300 Ė 400 PAR no issues, thousands of PAR in upper areas no issues. What breaks the balance is duration, it may become too much accumulated light energy per day causing the problems.
I keep reading this statement, you, Dennis Wong, others, but it is so abstract and an unobtainable to me. I am meticulous with my husbandry by my tank balance is fragile I can't kick it into overdrive like that or I'll get deficiencies or algae. I am hoping with RO/DI water that things will be a little more forgiving. With my hard water I have to keep fertilizer lean or face algae or Lythraecae issues. Without more ferts I know I can't just pump up my lights to max (I could get 200par+).


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post #17 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 03:49 PM
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In your original formula for Plant Prod or CSM+B Zn was 0.4%.
But now in upgraded, Zn has been increased from 0.4% to 1.4% a 3.5X increase.

Could you please explain the evolution and reasoning for the change as I was using the old Ratio.
CSM and EDTA+DTPA MicroMix are both made by Plant-Prod. CSM is only EDTA and has B supposedly added by resellers, who knows. The EDTA+DTPA MicroMix is a solid product.

I have researched horticultural documents, natural waters, drinking water analysis and commercial aquatic plant trace element fertilizers. When we ignore Fe in the elemental ratio compositions then we can see a trend contradicting CSM and EDTA+DTPA MicroMix Zn levels to the other elements. It is also low in comparison to the Typical plant ratio analysis. By averaging data I came to the conclusion to increase Zn to the Typical plant ratio analysis level. My aquarium tests showed improvement in plant structural shape and plant health. I am happy with the results.


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post #18 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 04:18 PM
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I was under the impression plants can uptake and store nutrients when lights are on or off and it doesn't matter when you dose. Could you please provide a source that supports your statement, that is an interesting difference.
I was involved in this topic few times before, it is somewhere on this forum, I have discussed this with @Deanna in great details.
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I was under the impression Urea breaks down first to Ammonia so if anything I would be concerned with the Ammonia levels as to not cause a Bacterial or Algae bloom or poison fish.

It has been suggested to me that my entire source of N could be Urea but I have not tried that yet. What do you think the safe limit for concentration of Urea is that you can dose at one time?
Ammonia or to ammonium, this is why I prefer CO2 continuously in order to have low pH and therefore ammonium, not ammonia. On the other hand if it is good for ADA and Seachem then I wouldnít worry. Bacterial or algae bloom it obviously doesnít cause because plants take it up very fast. Though overdosing poses a risk just as any other fertilizer of course.
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Are you saying they dissolve all the elements to mix and then dry the solution to get uniform mixing? Otherwise I don't know how they could mix big batches uniformly for our purposes. The original CSM was meant as a bulk fertilizer, that was my concern, not the concentration of B.
I have no idea how they do it, Iíve been mixing EDTA+DTPA MicroMix batches as small as 170 ml and never had any problem.
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I keep reading this statement, you, Dennis Wong, others, but it is so abstract and an unobtainable to me. I am meticulous with my husbandry by my tank balance is fragile I can't kick it into overdrive like that or I'll get deficiencies or algae. I am hoping with RO/DI water that things will be a little more forgiving. With my hard water I have to keep fertilizer lean or face algae or Lythraecae issues. Without more ferts I know I can't just pump up my lights to max (I could get 200par+).
Once you have 1 dKH you will be blasting the light at 200 PAR and teaching others how to do it.
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post #19 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 05:04 PM
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What do you think the safe limit for concentration of Urea is that you can dose at one time?
Urea needs to be dosed daily because plant uptake and reaction is very fast at the beginning and then it settles down. The daily addition quantity is equal to the NO3 equivalent of the usual total uptake. Any overdose will register as accumulated NO3 in the water column.

Aside from that, we must not forget that urea alone will not work without Ni nickel. Plants must have Ni in order to process urea molecule.
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post #20 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 09:20 PM
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Plants taking NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium before the bacteria is a major plus for plants. Plantís best nitrogen source is just that. If they donít have it they go for NO3 nitrate. The best part as I mentioned before, is plants take NH3 ammonia / NH4 ammonium 24 hours a day, unlike NO3 nitrate only during the day. This is why urea or fish waste (NH3 / NH4) are such good options to supply nitrogen to plants.
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I was under the impression plants can uptake and store nutrients when lights are on or off and it doesn't matter when you dose. Could you please provide a source that supports your statement, that is an interesting difference.
Here is one.
...
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post #21 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 10:14 PM
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Here is one.
...
Thanks great article.
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post #22 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 10:25 PM
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Articles I. and II.


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post #23 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 12:28 AM
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I keep reading this statement, you, Dennis Wong, others, but it is so abstract and an unobtainable to me. I am meticulous with my husbandry by my tank balance is fragile I can't kick it into overdrive like that or I'll get deficiencies or algae.
Dennis is at just over 200 PAR at the substrate, so high but not crazy high.

And in his journal he says that such high PAR is of little benefit to most tanks. IME, at some point light is subject to the law of diminishing returns.

Not to say it can't be done, but I see very few advocating 300 or 400 PAR at the substrate, as for the average tank = algae farm. And quickly.


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post #24 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 01:33 AM
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Expanding upon @Edward’s mentioning my urea use:

I have been dosing urea, exclusively (for N), for about 8 months and have been very pleased with the results. I wasn’t unhappy with NO3 dosing, but I find it easier to control NO3 levels with the urea as the flywheel for N adjustment vis-ŗ-vis fish waste. I noticed an uptick in PO4 and Mg consumption (not Ca - oddly) once I began urea dosing. I assume that this is an indicator of accelerated growth vs. my former NO3 dosing. I am currently adding 1ppm NO3 equivalent daily. I have no bio-media in my filter, so most BB conversion to NO3 is within the tank. With substrate/surface BB being much slower than bio-media in a filter, my expectation is that the plants are using all the NH4 they need and that very little NO3 is being consumed. I have both a heavy fish and plant load and pH is never above ~6.5 (daytime it’s in the 5.7 area). I’m currently stable at about 10ppm NO3 by weeks’ end (with 30% weekly w/c) and that is my target.

I use only RO/DI water. My micros are all DIY and I try to avoid chelates (including iron) since my UVS rips any chelated products apart within hours. I believe that all the metals in CSM+B are chelated. However, with my DIY auto-doser, I’m dosing throughout the day. Current daily trace dosings are: Fe (gluc): 0.1, Mn: .03, B: 0.02, Cu: 0.005, Mo: 0.0025, Zn: 0.02 and Ni: 0.0002.

The only weekly dosing I do now is Ca (CaCl+CaSO4, separately) and Mg, when I need it and Mg is sucked-up at a much greater rate than Ca (which rarely needs much other than baseline replacement from the w/c). I don’t quite understand why this is happening, but haven’t tried too hard to figure it out. GH ~ 3 dGH and dKH <1.

The top third of my Rotala Macrandra is bright red and grows rapidly in a large “V”-shaped mass. No significant algae issues in over a year with ~70 substrate PAR for 12-hours / day. Inert substrate.
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post #25 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 02:21 AM
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Thank you for your updates, they are always very informative. Now we have your trace element mix details, please see attachment, it is interesting to see what you have.

The reason why Mg is taken faster and at a higher rate than Ca is because you are offering it at higher concentrations to your plants and it is a mobile element and therefore it can be moved and stored anywhere in the plant tissue. Ca is immobile and therefore limited in movement and storage capacity, it is just hanging there but still must be present for plants to function properly.

Your trace element mix reveals higher Cu levels than average, can you explain why?
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post #26 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 02:47 AM
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Dennis is at just over 200 PAR at the substrate, so high but not crazy high.

And in his journal he says that such high PAR is of little benefit to most tanks. IME, at some point light is subject to the law of diminishing returns.

Not to say it can't be done, but I see very few advocating 300 or 400 PAR at the substrate, as for the average tank = algae farm. And quickly.
I have seen you mention it several times, we agree, high par light magnifies any mistakes and imbalances and the growth rate after a certain point is only marginally increased. I was up at 130 par and I'd like to get back to that point at some point but I think its impossible without RODI in my case.


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post #27 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 02:50 AM
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The reason why Mg is taken faster and at a higher rate than Ca is because you are offering it at higher concentrations to your plants and it is a mobile element and therefore it can be moved and stored anywhere in the plant tissue. Ca is immobile and therefore limited in movement and storage capacity, it is just hanging there but still must be present for plants to function properly.
Didn't think that this would cause the heavy consumption. Ca is running at a steady 15ppm, yet I have to add about 6ppm Mg weekly, just to hold above 1-2ppm by weeks' end.

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Deanna
Now we have your trace element mix details, please see attachment, it is interesting to see what you have.

Your trace element mix reveals higher Cu levels than average, can you explain why?
Those bar charts make it look heavier than it is. That 10x adjustment caught me off guard before I noticed it.

Cu is high mainly because I averaged a number of approaches (Tropica, Seachem, Hoagland and the 1965 study), but weighted Tropica heavily. I have been considering lowering Mn to .02, Cu to .002, Mo to .0015 and Ni to .0001 in my next batch, now that other variables have been stable a few months.
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post #28 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 03:15 AM
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Cu is high mainly because I averaged a number of approaches (Tropica, Seachem, Hoagland and the 1965 study), but weighted Tropica heavily. I have been considering lowering Mn to .02, Cu to .002, Mo to .0015 and Ni to .0001 in my next batch, now that other variables have been stable a few months.
Your next batch project.
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post #29 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 03:17 AM
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I was up at 130 par and I'd like to get back to that point at some point but I think its impossible without RODI in my case.
Yea you're probably right
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post #30 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 04:36 AM
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Rotala wallichii
has never seen any dosed N nitrogen or P phosphorus in any form, only fish waste.

Water column parameters are 4 ppm NO3, undetectable PO4, 30 ppm K, 20 Ė 35 ppm Ca, 5 Ė 8 ppm Mg, 1 dKH. Daily dose 0.01 ppm Fe(TE) EDTA+DTPA MicroMix by Plant-Prod distributed by GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX and custom modified with Zn and Ni to Upgraded CSM+B / Trace Mix. Light source very intense, 350 PAR at the plant tops, 4 hours a day with additional viewing LED lights. Substrate inert.

Rotala wallichii

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