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post #46 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
Oh My- 113 degrees! Its 101 degrees in Elk Grove, California and its miserable.! Cant imagine what 113 degrees feels like.
It's a dry heat....

Actually the daphnia source on ebay is in Elk Grove: aquawonder. Do you know them by chance?
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post #47 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 12:30 AM
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It's a dry heat....

Actually the daphnia source on ebay is in Elk Grove: aquawonder. Do you know them by chance?
Really? Cool. No, I dont know of them.

180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
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post #48 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 12:03 PM
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Thanks, this is really helpful. I've shortened my lighting period and have been doing 10-20% WC daily--wasn't sure if the fresh water & the micros in it was just exacerbating the problem or not. Don't have a phosphate test on hand, and it's not listed in our local water report. All our water comes from our aquifer. Are phosphates often an issue in groundwater, or just surface water?
Fertilizers/nutrients can be an issue in groundwater depending on location and soil type, but I doubt you'd have issues given your location so I wouldn't worry about it. Aside from Daphnia, diatomaceous earth filters (Vortex XL) are an excellent means of clearing up green water. They're great for clearing water in general too. I thought I had pretty clean/clear water before using one...I was wrong. Those things will pull out tiny stuff we can't even see and didn't realize was there. They're not something that is necessarily used frequently, but they're a strong tool to have on hand. I used to run mine after major uprootings to get all the tiny stuff the water change and regular filters couldn't clean up. In my opinion they're better than UVs as they don't impact nutrients or Daphnia as they don't get eaten or die when the food source is gone.

Regards,
Phil

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post #49 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 12:25 PM
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I was referring to covering lava rock, spiderwood and coarse inert sand, not at the bottom but the premise should be the same. The shrimp keeper I know adds Stability with his monthly water changes in his shrimp tanks and while establishing a new tank.
You chemists and your throwing around the word substrate willy nilly, sheesh! I agree, the premise should be the same, and may have even greater benefits as the hardscape materials have much better contact with water. I wouldn't be surprised if someone showed that adding bacterial suspensions helped to promote aufwuchs and other biofilms that shrimp feed on.

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Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
ADA products are often a mystery to me, highly marketed claims, expensive, and difficult to know what exactly is in it or if it works.
Power Sand Special seems to have two important components mixed in Bacter 100 (100 forms of dormant bacteria spores much like Stability) and Clear Super which seems similar to Seachem Purigen in that it absorbs organics and provides a surface for micro organism growth.
Such is the problem with proprietary materials, eh? I believe the methodology behind ADA's substrate products is sound, even if all the products don't provide huge benefits. As far as the US hobby is concerned, ADA came onto the scene when we were still in the Iron Age compared to the rest of the world and gave results we hadn't experienced en masse before. Carrying the name of the guy who revolutionized the hobby didn't hurt either. If you think their stuff's expensive here; I paid the equivalent of 25 USD for a small wabi kusa when I was in Japan. Their stuff isn't cheap anywhere!

I haven't seen any of the research, but I did have the chance to talk with Amano about it and he did say they'd done actual research in their development process. From ADA's Clear Super product page: "It is a substrate additive made from activated carbon and organic acid. Clear Super helps the growth of microorganisms. By sprinkling on the base substrate, it promotes the growth of microorganisms in the substrate, and stabilizes the environment." It sounds to me like something meant to trap nutrients (the carbon) and feed the bacteria in Bacter 100 (organic acids as a labile carbon source) to more rapidly establish the substrate microbiome. One of the major topics I looked into during a research project was the concept of carbon limitation in soils (particularly here in the US Southeast) preventing microbial processing of N and P in lower strata of permeable soils. With Amazonia releasing so much N and the organic matter containing decent amounts of P, I can see how adding a carbon source would help stimulate bacterial growth in immature substrates.

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I don't have enough experience establishing tanks so my anecdotal reports are just about worthless, I never had a control.
Wouldn't it be nice to have the resources to do controlled stuff at home? One can dream.

Regards,
Phil
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post #50 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Desert Pupfish View Post
Thanks, this is really helpful. I've shortened my lighting period and have been doing 10-20% WC daily--wasn't sure if the fresh water & the micros in it was just exacerbating the problem or not. Don't have a phosphate test on hand, and it's not listed in our local water report. All our water comes from our aquifer. Are phosphates often an issue in groundwater, or just surface water?

I'd considered daphnia. Any particular kind you recommend? I was thinking Moina since they seem to have more forgiving temperature parameters. No place sells live daphnia locally, so I'd need to order them. But first I've gotta arrange to have them held at the PO, since it's 113į here today, so that last mile of delivery would be lethal. Will try to make that happen. Now I just need to get more fish to eat the daphnia, since I'm assuming my otos are dedicated vegans......

Phosphates everywhere in the water- they are generally not harmful- unless the water turns green, which can deplete oxygen. Phosphates come from an array of things- they are always present in water however decaying plant matter, fish poop, overfeeding, even aquarium salts and buffers can add to it. Ideal phosphate levels are 0.05-1 ppm (of course this is all relative to the style of tank and experience level and the plants).


The dafnia will live there happy.... once you get fish they will nom nomm. But first, you should know what phosphates are, and why they make algae blooms like green water possible. Generally I would look at your tank and determine why.....



Otherwise just purchasing fish will mean that you are scooting the main issue, and ultimately adding to the problem (fish food and feces).

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post #51 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 12:46 PM
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Many tanks are experiments. People try a mixture on methods and they either hit on one that works for them. Or they fail. ADA products do have a lot of research in them and if you follow their guidelines you will have success. Itís when people stray from the guidelines failure rears itís head.
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post #52 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Phil Edwards View Post
Fertilizers/nutrients can be an issue in groundwater depending on location and soil type, but I doubt you'd have issues given your location so I wouldn't worry about it. Aside from Daphnia, diatomaceous earth filters (Vortex XL) are an excellent means of clearing up green water. They're great for clearing water in general too. I thought I had pretty clean/clear water before using one...I was wrong. Those things will pull out tiny stuff we can't even see and didn't realize was there. They're not something that is necessarily used frequently, but they're a strong tool to have on hand. I used to run mine after major uprootings to get all the tiny stuff the water change and regular filters couldn't clean up. In my opinion they're better than UVs as they don't impact nutrients or Daphnia as they don't get eaten or die when the food source is gone.

Regards,
Phil
Thanks, Phil. Good suggestion for the diatomaceous earth filter. I'm guessing these don't provide biologic filtration, so you'd use this in addition to, not instead, of other filtration? My piece of crap Jebo sponge filter is already falling apart after a month, so need to replace it. It looks like the Vortex DE filters start at about $150, so if it can't replace what I have it might have to go on the wish list for later.

While down the green water internet rabbit hole, I came across barley extracts like API's BarleyClear. Anyone have experience with that?

It's looking like daphnia may be the most economical option--and I'll save on fish food for awhile LOL. Just need to work out the delivery so they don't fry in the heat....
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post #53 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 01:27 PM
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In my opinion they're better than UVs as they don't impact nutrients
Which nutrients are affected by UV, or are you speaking about chelators?

IMO, a UVS is one of the first tools I'd recommend using. In 10-15 years of use, I haven't had a single suspected parasitic/bacterial outbreak (I do put new fish in a QT, though) or anything but perfectly clear water. Had both, occasionally, before employing it. Plants don't seem to have any nutrient problems.
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post #54 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 02:21 PM
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Phosphates everywhere in the water- they are generally not harmful- unless the water turns green, which can deplete oxygen. Phosphates come from an array of things- they are always present in water however decaying plant matter, fish poop, overfeeding, even aquarium salts and buffers can add to it. Ideal phosphate levels are 0.05-1 ppm (of course this is all relative to the style of tank and experience level and the plants).

The dafnia will live there happy.... once you get fish they will nom nomm. But first, you should know what phosphates are, and why they make algae blooms like green water possible. Generally I would look at your tank and determine why.....


Otherwise just purchasing fish will mean that you are scooting the main issue, and ultimately adding to the problem (fish food and feces).
Thanks. I know what phosphates are, and that they can cause algae blooms--hence the question. Likely the phosphates are from the emersed plants I unwittingly bought melting when I submersed them. Cleaned my filter and did 10-20% WC daily for a week because it was filling with gunk, but there may still be some debris the filters didn't get that is responsible for the increased phosphate load.

There's no fish food to add new phosphates, as I'm not feeding my 4 otos--they're just eating all the algae and love the pea soup.
Same for all the snails and couple of ghost shrimp. And it's doubtful my deep desert aquifer water has much phosphates in it like you'd get from groundwater sources. The local water report doesn't have phosphates, so it's unlikely they even measure it--but I'll ask & see. And no, I have no plans to buy any more fish until I get the algal bloom under control and my plants growing again.

So the dilemma is how to reduce the green water enough that I can a)see well enough to do a deep clean, and b)get my plants to grow enough to outcompete the algae. I've been doing 10-20% WC daily, but it's not helping. The tank water has much lower pH & alkalinity than my tap water--likely due to all the organic decomposition from the massive plant melt. So I'm leery of doing a massive water change and shocking my livestock & plants.

Gonna see if I can get some more ghost shrimp--they should help eat any debris I can't see, as well as algae. And will try to figure out how to safely ship some daphnia--hopefully they'll clear up the water enough that all the plants can get more light & nutrients and outcompete the algae. I've already reduced my lighting to 5-6 hrs/day, and turned off the blue actinics on my LED fixture, so it's just red/green/white.

FYI: I've described all this in my thread on the low tech forum--but not many people on this site seem to go to or comment on anything in the low tech forum. So apologies in advance if I'm hijacking this thread....

Suggestions welcomed!
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post #55 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Phil Edwards View Post
project was the concept of carbon limitation in soils (particularly here in the US Southeast) preventing microbial processing of N and P in lower strata of permeable soils. With Amazonia releasing so much N and the organic matter containing decent amounts of P, I can see how adding a carbon source would help stimulate bacterial growth in immature substrates.
In Aerobic or Anaerobic conditions?

But really I haven't found anything that proves the basic premise, does more mature bacterial colonies prevent diatoms and other forms of algae? (Beyond swift removal of Ammonia).
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post #56 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Desert Pupfish View Post
Thanks. I know what phosphates are, and that they can cause algae blooms--hence the question. Likely the phosphates are from the emersed plants I unwittingly bought melting when I submersed them. Cleaned my filter and did 10-20% WC daily for a week because it was filling with gunk, but there may still be some debris the filters didn't get that is responsible for the increased phosphate load.
I would get a phosphates test- note that a lot of plant debris can harbor in the substrate, especially if they are not meant to be submerged (they are often sold as submerged... but they are not and melt quickly).... So those water changes could be constantly 'rustling' things up, not to mention keeping any nutrients in the water column is nearly impossible with that amount of water changes. I would be interested to see what your phosphates are. When I get time ill read the entire thread again... I tend to forget

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post #57 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 04:27 PM
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Algae spores need ammonium to germinate..

Quote:
Algae spores eat ammonia (NH4) and algae eats nitrate (NO3) and phosphate (PO4).
Nitrate (NO3) and phosphate (PO4) don?t cause algae. Ammonia does!! - Aquarium-fertilizer.com

Quote:
Everything I read states, very clearly, that spores cannot use nitrite or nitrates. They must have ammonia.

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I know what phosphates are, and that they can cause algae blooms--
No...not exactly..
Quote:
An analysis of mean growing season concentrations of chlorophyll, total phosphorus (TP), and total nitrogen (TN) in 228 north latitude lakes confirms previous observations that chlo- rophyll yield is dependent both on the phosphorus concentration and on the TN:TP ratio. Of two modified chlorophyll models which depend explicitly on both nitrogen and phosphorus developed and tested, one, a multiple regression model, appears to greatly reduce the error of chlorophyll prediction in lakes. A theoretical framework is presented which provides an explanation for the observed effects of N:P ratios

He concluded that over the range 10 6 TN:TP G 17 by weight, chlorophyll yield was very nearly bal- anced with respect to both TP and TN but that chlorophyll was dependent only on TN when TN:TP < 10, and only on TP when the TN:TP ratio was >17. Iden- tical conclusions were drawn by Fors- berg et al. (1978) from algal bioassays in Swedish lakes. The literature provides many other examples of interactions be- tween N and P in controlling algal yield in laboratory bioassays
https://aslopubs.onlinelibrary.wiley...1982.27.6.1101

Quote:
In final conclusion, there is no evidence to support increased algae growth rates in swimming pool water below 1000 ppb. The largest source of pool phosphates appears to be from scale and stain products and not environmental.
Keep in mind this is a PLANT FREE application, unless you are growing them in your pool.

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post #58 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 04:52 PM
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Which nutrients are affected by UV, or are you speaking about chelators?
Yes, sorry, I didn't specify well enough.



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Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
In Aerobic or Anaerobic conditions?
Both. Everyone loves Carbon!

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post #59 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 07:19 PM
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I would get a phosphates test- note that a lot of plant debris can harbor in the substrate, especially if they are not meant to be submerged (they are often sold as submerged... but they are not and melt quickly).... So those water changes could be constantly 'rustling' things up, not to mention keeping any nutrients in the water column is nearly impossible with that amount of water changes. I would be interested to see what your phosphates are. When I get time ill read the entire thread again... I tend to forget
Sorry, the "emersed plant" comment was a little misleading. I posted a plant list in my tank thread in the low tech forum, but nobody seems to read anything there, so I end up having to post my questions elsewhere. Bad form, I know, but.....

They're all aquatic plants that can be grown submersed, but apparently most commercial suppliers grow them emersed because it's faster & cheaper--so between that and the change in water parameters, they melt a little to a lot when get into the home aquarium. The H. difformis from the store melted almost completely, whereas the H. Tropic Sunset I bought from another hobbyist off Ebay didn't melt at all and has done beautifully.

I can order & wait for a phosphate test, but riddle me this: if predictably enough the results come back high because of all the melted plant debris, what would I do differently? I'm still gonna do a deep clean once I can clear up the water enough to actually see what I'm doing. To do that, I'm looking at daphnia, rather than dumping H2O, AlgaeFix or some other chemical in there that could hurt fish and/or plants. Add a few more ghost shrimp if I can find some to help with the plant clean up. And keep dosing gluteral (API CO2 Booster) daily per other advice on here. (I know it's a chemical too, but presumably a kinder gentler chemical)

Sounds like I should do fewer rather than more water changes so I don't keep stirring things up. Certainly the bioload from 4 otos, 2 ghost shrimp & the snails is not gonna cause any problems in the short term. Any recommendations for how often & how much? I tend to do 10% at a time because I use 5 gal buckets. So every other day? Even less often?

Thanks for all the advice.
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post #60 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 08:02 PM
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@Desert Pupfish
Didnt realize which thread we were in... as I was on my phone and lost track. I went ahead and responded to your other post as to not hijack this one. We can chat there.

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