Fert dosing - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #31 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by p0tluck View Post
@Maryland Guppy, okay I see what you're saying after a quick glance at people's numbers, but I do see most are dosing a pretty high value of (K) , is this because most of those in that thread are high tech w/c02, which would mean since I'm low tech I dont need to run 15-20 ppm (K) as my plants don't grow as fast as those in a pressurized CO2 setup? Yes I see most are running on an average of 0.1 so I will cut the csm+B and the DTPA in half so that my total between the 2 reaches a target ppm of 0.1.

I see most are running higher phosphate values ranging from 2-5+ should I increase my PO4?

My tank parameters are

20-25 nitrate (after dosing, fish bioload is 10-15)
0 ammonia
0 nitrite
PH 7.5-7.6
Kh 4
Gh 7
Phosphate 2.5
Tds 158 (varies)
Temp is 76

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I really need to get with @Greggz and add a second line to my part of the spreadsheet on the dosing thread. Anyway, the numbers listed for me were a little on the high side and over the last few months I have been lowering some of the macro dosing. Currently my weekly totals are;
K=13.37
PO4 = 5.25
NO3 = 12.8 (includes what is listed in my tap water report)
FE = 0.45 which has not changed in 6 months - ish.
Other info
Ca=45, dGH=10, Mg=16, dKH=2 (reduced from tap water level of 7)
Lighting is still at 120par level. CO2 is pretty high - but could not tell you a reasonable ppm level. Biggest variable for me is the large fish load in my tank (similar to Greggs).

With all that stated, yes you could probably get by with a K level that is much lower than 15-20ppm. Several well know hobbiest try to keep the weekly K level lower than the Mg level. If you look at the Ratios section of that dosing spreadsheet you will see a lot of 1.?:1 in the Mg:K column - this is what I am referring to. With a GH of 7, your Mg level is not likely to be 15-20ppm. Always a lot of variables that go into possible fert dosing - this is just something to keep in mind.
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post #32 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Immortal1 View Post
I really need to get with @Greggz and add a second line to my part of the spreadsheet on the dosing thread. Anyway, the numbers listed for me were a little on the high side and over the last few months I have been lowering some of the macro dosing. Currently my weekly totals are;

K=13.37

PO4 = 5.25

NO3 = 12.8 (includes what is listed in my tap water report)

FE = 0.45 which has not changed in 6 months - ish.

Other info

Ca=45, dGH=10, Mg=16, dKH=2 (reduced from tap water level of 7)

Lighting is still at 120par level. CO2 is pretty high - but could not tell you a reasonable ppm level. Biggest variable for me is the large fish load in my tank (similar to Greggs).



With all that stated, yes you could probably get by with a K level that is much lower than 15-20ppm. Several well know hobbiest try to keep the weekly K level lower than the Mg level. With a GH of 7, you Mg level is not likely to be 15-20ppm. Always a lot of variables that go into possible fert dosing - this is just something to keep in mind.
Yeah my bioload from my fish are between 10-15 ppm NO3, I add 10.08 ppm ontop of that via ferts, I think I have it figured out a bit but still probably over thinking it, still wondering if I should increase my PO4, I dose 2.62 ppm weekly, but going to roll with the dosing I posted in the image for 3-4 weeks and observe, if there are improvements in plants I'll leave it, if I see defiencies I'll address from there

I do need to have a water report done my tap tds is (well all over the place tbh) lol, I've seen it as low as 58 and as high as 128.

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post #33 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Maryland Guppy View Post
@p0tluck I didn't mean to compare.
Just trying to bring some clarity to your extreme amounts of Fe.
The 100+PAR tanks are not introducing that much Fe.
Yeah I worded that poorly.

It is good to compare, just not to emulate.

If a low tech non CO2 tan is approaching the numbers on that chart, it's probably way too much, which I know is what you were getting too.

And too much CSM+B can cause issues in any tank, but that is a long discussion.


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post #34 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 03:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
Yeah I worded that poorly.



It is good to compare, just not to emulate.



If a low tech non CO2 tan is approaching the numbers on that chart, it's probably way too much, which I know is what you were getting too.



And too much CSM+B can cause issues in any tank, but that is a long discussion.
Yeah I've heard bad things about csm+B about plant toxicity, Dennis wong actually told me to use flourish comprehensive + DTPA 11% instead of the csm+B, I was advised to switch to miller's microplex by another individual, I get told so many things I get confused lol.

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post #35 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 04:52 PM
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I just hope this discussion and member's inputs have helped you out.
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post #36 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 05:07 PM
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No CO2, Med/Low light, easy species (Rotalas, Crypts, Vals etc.) points heavily to leaner ferts than high range EI.

To get less algae(particularly hair algae), I would be trying to limit the Fe and Micros dosed. I'd try no more than 0.2ppm Fe total weekly (0.1 from CSM+B and 0.1 from DTPA). If I were you I'd measure out enough of each to make up 500ml solutions in distilled water and dose 5ml per week that will last you amost 2 years.

15.5grams of Fe 11% DTPA in 500ml of distilled water, then you dose 5ml of this solution once per week to give your 45 gallons 0.1ppm of Fe.

Don't fall into the trap of following that share your dosing thread and expecting your tank needs anything close to what Greggz, Immortal1 or Maryland's tanks need. They have a lot of hungry high demand stems, high light, adequate CO2, and you don't.
Noone here giving advice knows exactly how to rebalance your tank(its very much trial and error for everyone) but its easy to see you don't have a high density of hungry stems and thus very likely don't need anywhere close to what you are currently dosing.
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Last edited by cl3537; 05-12-2019 at 05:21 PM. Reason: ...
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post #37 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
Don't fall into the trap of following that share your dosing thread
Didn't realize there was a trap involved?
I thought it was an information sharing thread.
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post #38 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Maryland Guppy View Post
Didn't realize there was a trap involved?
I thought it was an information sharing thread.
The thread itself, we agree it is information sharing and meant to help others.
The trap is thinking "oh look at his tank and those healthy, pretty plants, If I dose the same in my tank I will get the same results".

Your balance works for you, few tanks are eating 3 - 5ppm NO3 per day, so following your dosing it will be quite difficult to duplicate for most other tanks especially those with much less plant density.
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Last edited by cl3537; 05-13-2019 at 02:56 AM. Reason: Its more humorous without the typo
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post #39 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 09:55 PM
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There are hobbyist that startup iwagumi-type scapes (low plant mass) with Aquasoil and hi-end EI dosing with great success. There are plenty of these tanks online to see. So the theory is pretty mute that it can't work. Husbandry, light mgmt and using organic removal techniques makes this possible if you don't have the stems to make up for it.

If you think about it, what's the difference between doing add'l water changes or having the plant mass. They both remove the same stuff.


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post #40 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
The thread itself, we agree it is information sharing and meant to help others.
The trap is thinking "oh look at his tank and those health pretty plants, If I dose the same in my tank I will get the same results".

Your balance works for you, few tanks are eating 3 - 5ppm NO3 per day, so following your dosing it will be quite difficult to duplicate for most other tanks especially those with much less plant density.

Might be one of the funnier things I have read today - likely because I said almost the exact thing to the wife more than once
Really the sad part, or maybe interesting part... if "I" set up 2 tanks, using my tap water, using the same lights, using the same plants and substrate, with the lights on the same timer...
I can end up with 2 different dosing techniques simply because I have different levels of fish in the 2 tanks.


Oh wait, I already DID that


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post #41 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 11:46 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Maryland Guppy View Post
I just hope this discussion and member's inputs have helped you out.
It has helped for sure, I still have a lot to learn but starting to understand ty very much.

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post #42 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 12:13 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
The thread itself, we agree it is information sharing and meant to help others.
The trap is thinking "oh look at his tank and those health pretty plants, If I dose the same in my tank I will get the same results".

Your balance works for you, few tanks are eating 3 - 5ppm NO3 per day, so following your dosing it will be quite difficult to duplicate for most other tanks especially those with much less plant density.
Yes I'm aware now that rotala aren't in the "hungry" stem category which I thought they were, but the issue is I'm fighting to get "easy plants" to grow, my crypts anubias everything in my tank grows except Wisteria, water sprite and my Amazon sword (I have to cut half off every 2 weeks because the leaves turn transparent with holes) , which is confusing me because I thought those 3 plants (especially the water sprite/Wisteria) would grow like crazy which they don't (maybe it's because I have fish that eat it )

I was dosing 0.2 ppm fe but I realize after @Maryland Guppy and @Greggz pointed out that my dosing of fe was to high as well as my dosing of K (was dosing 17.31 ppm) that's way too much for my tank which as you stated isn't "hungry nor anywhere near what others are using) as i know c02 makes a huge difference in plants and nutrient uptake.

I will say this though, before I added more fish my NO3 before dosing was about 5 I dosed 10 ppm NO3 which put my nitrate up to 15 at the end of the week it was back down to 5, don't know if that's common in a low tech tank though.

I don't have any other algae in the tank besides this nightmare called hair algae , I've modified my filters, light, everything you can think of doing to get rid of the hair algae and nothing works so hopelly by cutting the ferts back it will (knock on wood)

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post #43 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 03:18 AM
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The trap is thinking "oh look at his tank and those health pretty plants, If I dose the same in my tank I will get the same results".
With all of the discussion on this forum regarding tank maintenance, water changes, phish load, overfeeding, CO2 levels, PAR & lighting spectrum, vacuuming the substrate, plant selection, causes of algae, plant dips and treatment, trimming and propagation methods, substrate choices, fertilizer ratios, flow and circulation, alkalinity & hardness, filter media preferences, front loading fertilizers, activated carbon usage and the simple fact that sometimes a plant will not like what we serve. Just to name a few!

I would certainly hope that no one is so naive to think it is only the quantity/replication of fertilizer dosed in one's tank that brings out the best in plants.
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post #44 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 03:22 AM
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Yes I'm aware now that rotala aren't in the "hungry" stem category which I thought they were
Definitely not, I had/have Rotala Rotundifolia, I had problems with them which I attribute to excess Ferts (see my journal) but that remains unproven. I will try to grow out the tops in my new scape with lean ferts and no aquasoil to see if I can.

Quote:
I was dosing 0.2 ppm fe
0.2 or 2? 10X difference!

Quote:
I will say this though, before I added more fish my NO3 before dosing was about 5 I dosed 10 ppm NO3 which put my nitrate up to 15 at the end of the week it was back down to 5, don't know if that's common in a low tech tank though.
I have never been able to monitor my NO3 uptake with the API kit(my tank certainly doesn't consume 10ppm in a week and the API kit isn't very accurate) and I can never be sure of 5ppm or 15ppm, but assuming you use it and can reproduce those numbers week after week than you have a great way of knowing your plant uptake and that your nitrates are in a good range. I beleive Maryland Guppy is able to do this.

Quote:
I don't have any other algae in the tank besides this nightmare called hair algae
It has been linked to excess Fe and stray Sunlight.
You can kill it out with Seachem Excel overdose (which is a Carbon supplement which most plants like) and prevent it with regular weekly dosing, but some fish/plants do not like it.

Quote:
so hopefully by cutting the ferts back it will (knock on wood)
Lets hope so, good-luck.
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post #45 of 70 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 03:27 AM Thread Starter
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Definitely not, I had/have Rotala Rotundifolia, I had problems with them which I attribute to excess Ferts (see my journal) but that remains unproven. I will try to grow out the tops in my new scape with lean ferts and no aquasoil to see if I can.





0.2 or 2? 10X difference!







I have never been able to monitor my NO3 uptake with the API kit(my tank certainly doesn't consume 10ppm in a week and the API kit isn't very accurate) and I can never be sure of 5ppm or 15ppm, but assuming you use it and can reproduce those numbers week after week than you have a great way of knowing your plant uptake and that your nitrates are in a good range. I beleive @mArineland Guppy is able to do this.







It has been linked to excess Fe and stray Sunlight.

You can kill it out with Seachem Excel overdose (which is a Carbon supplement which most plants like) and prevent it with regular weekly dosing, but some fish/plants do not like it.





Lets hope so, good-luck.
I failed at multi quoting to answer individually

0.2 fe is what I was dosing but cut it back to 1.006

I don't use the api kit for my nitrates I use nutrifin for nitrate which is far more accurate than api, but it's still a hobby grade test kit in the end.

I tried excel, killed 3 fish and destroyed one of my anubias, tried h2o2, killed 2 fish didn't touch it, I don't want to use chemicals.



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