When to know if you are over-thinking fertilization - Page 8 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #106 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 06:34 PM
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Something we Really need is pics of tanks that are well maintained just before a haircut. Or showing what a clump of stem plants that are past just trimming and just need to be pulled and replanted with tops. Maybe a pic of the same thing everyday for a month or two showing the ebb and flow of “perfect”. :-)


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post #107 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 02:22 AM
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Humour is so important in life~
I mean joy is also important in the hobby. I think folks that spend time studying plant growth etc want to improve in general and thats a good thing, but I think most folks tend to be too harsh on their own tanks. Sometimes, we are really picking at small details whereas if most of the public saw the average tank here - they would be damn impressed. We should not let too much fault-finding and micro-management destroy the pleasure of owning nice planted tanks
I fully agree with this. 75% of my time looking at my tank is spent figuring out what is happening, where I see growth, where I don't, how it looks, if I need to change something, and measuring how my battle with the 6 tufts of BBA is going (I could just spray with Met14 but then I wouldn't know if tank conditions were finally favoring plants 100%)
Then we have friends over and they say "wow, are those real plants!? That's fantastic" and I'm LEARNING to say thank you, instead of quickly showing them pictures that I see as goals to reach, explaining that my tank really isn't special. We could all be reminded how beautiful our tanks really are, and learn to enjoy them 90% of the time, rather than find something to fight with.
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post #108 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 04:07 PM
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That having been said, @Xiaozhuang seems to be pointing to a general notion that I haven't seen stated quite this clearly: Algae is not caused by light, fertilizer or CO2, rather it is a "plant" that seems to opportunistically grow and feed on compounds produced via methods other than chemical fertilizers (urea/ammonia excluded?) but rather as a result of either plants leaching nutrients(?) due to some form of stress (of which many have been mentioned) or fish producing waste which can leach these particular waste nutrients. The various things produced by those processes I'll assume are much more organic in nature than our fert salts and likely tied to specific bacterial action as well. Algae is nature's process for cleaning up after fauna and flora waste. If we remove fauna waste products before they can feed bacteria (which may create by products which feed algae, not just nitrate) or algae, then we starve algae off
I'm not sure if this is coming from just years of observation or actual scientific data, but either way it really doesn't matter how you define "cause" it matters whats going on in your setup Reducing and removing organics is always a good idea in a dosed tank. The more that is removed the more wiggle room you have with light, stock, etc.

So within the confines of an aquarium too much light brings out the algae to nuisance levels. The ability for a tank to grow algae is always there. The threshold is different in every tank for it to truly grow. Algae doesn't need much. If you put a tank out in the sun with no life stock or plants algae will still grow, just based on the available "nutrients in the water" and the spores that exists. The trick is to keep the spores, spores by learning the threshold of a tank.
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post #109 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 05:29 PM
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@Blacktetra i have written an algae article for my group page on facebook, maybe it could help answer some questions. if you read my article you will find that decaying plant only cause certain types of alages, BBA is the main one. i have also talked about how certain ferilizer, ratio etc cause certain types of algae

I also see people saying "HC is a good indicator of Co2" i have a HC that is growing Lush in Non CO2 tank, i can post pics at request, that tank is no longer setup as it was many years ago, but it should prove this HC and Co2 thingi.
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post #110 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 05:37 PM
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@Blacktetra ...

I also see people saying "HC is a good indicator of Co2" i have a HC that is growing Lush in Non CO2 tank, i can post pics at request, that tank is no longer setup as it was many years ago, but it should prove this HC and Co2 thingi.
I would like to see a pic if you wouldn't mind. If your using soil (dirt) and/or used DSM all bets are off.


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post #111 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 07:07 PM
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I would like to see a pic if you wouldn't mind. If your using soil (dirt) and/or used DSM all bets are off.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/a...9&d=1468632519

the tank was flora max and old ADA soil mixed, there is some minor GDA as well, but that's not important, neither is the soil in this case as we are trying to debunk this HC and CO2 theory.

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post #112 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 07:08 PM
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Raj has pantanal growing low tech but that doesnt mean it wont care about co2 in any other tank.

The game changes when we add co2. Plants adjust their inner workings based on what's available to them. When co2 is brought into the picture, it better be at a certain level, delivered efficiently, and stable from one day to the next.

Growing something low-tech one time proves nothing, and is really irrelevant to what happens in a co2 injected tank.
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post #113 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by happi View Post
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/a...9&d=1468632519

the tank was flora max and old ADA soil mixed, there is some minor GDA as well, but that's not important, neither is the soil in this case as we are trying to debunk this HC and CO2 theory.
If it's actual soil of course it's important since there are a vault of plants that won't grow well without co2, but will grow with the co2 produced from soil.

Here's the thing. That looks good, but it's not really a myth since you could take 100 tanks here on TPT and they will have bad results growing HC without co2, but if you keep everything the same and simply add co2 the HC takes off and grows very lush. So at the end of the day, your trying to help the typical aquarist without the experience or dedication you might have. I have grown HC and Riccia (submersed) without co2 as well, but I still wouldn't recommend it to the community at large.
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post #114 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 07:17 PM
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while we are talking about algae, i can promise you that high light doesn't cause algae even under low nutrinet's or low CO2, i have repeated this test several times, long as the plant mass stays high, the article can explain it in much more detail. the other thing we have seen is that lights with full spectrum tend to cause more algae, this isn't a confirmed test but it appear as this is whats happening, say you have light with 100 Par that is rich in Blue and red Spectrum only and say light with 50 PAR and rich in Blue, Green, Reds. you are more likely to face algae issues with the 2nd one.

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If it's actual soil of course it's important since there are a vault of plants that won't grow well without co2, but will grow with the co2 produced from soil.

Here's the thing. That looks good, but it's not really a myth since you could take 100 tanks here on TPT and they will have bad results growing HC without co2, but if you keep everything the same and simply add co2 the HC takes off and grows very lush. So at the end of the day, your trying to help the typical aquarist without the experience or dedication you might have. I have grown HC and Riccia (submersed) without co2 as well, but I still wouldn't recommend it to the community at large.
i was pointing toward the Articles where people say "HC is a good indicator of Co2" in your own statement you can prove it wrong.
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post #115 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 07:23 PM
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This is where "articles" conflict with actual real world aquariums and there's always "head-butting" going on.

Having enough plant mass to keep algae away is a non-starter. One it's very limiting to what you want to do within the glass box, and two most I would say the vast majority who startup tanks don't have enough plant mass for that to really work. So the light does become the larger issue. Put your tank out in the sun and let's see how much plant mass you need to keep it clean vs a tank under an aquarium light.

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i was pointing toward the Articles where people say "HC is a good indicator of Co2" in your own statement you can prove it wrong.
Yes I would agree with that, with a condition. The leaf size is larger with co2.


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post #116 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Raj has pantanal growing low tech but that doesnt mean it wont care about co2 in any other tank.

The game changes when we add co2. Plants adjust their inner workings based on what's available to them. When co2 is brought into the picture, it better be at a certain level, delivered efficiently, and stable from one day to the next.

Growing something low-tech one time proves nothing, and is really irrelevant to what happens in a co2 injected tank.
Joe, i believe you are missing my point. i tried several other plants in that tank which suppose require less co2 and they did terrible but some how HC did well, what does this tell us? HC is good indicator of CO2?

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post #117 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 07:46 PM
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Joe, i believe you are missing my point. i tried several other plants in that tank which suppose require less co2 and they did terrible but some how HC did well, what does this tell us? HC is good indicator of CO2?
To me it proves HC is adaptable if provided with other favorable conditions, same thing with Raj's pantanal. But in a co2 injected tank, both are very sensitive to poor co2.

By poor I mean low or unstable. Up and down levels are a big problem because the plant stays confused how to delegate their inner resources. Like producing rubisco to deal with low levels, which is an expensive enzyme to make.

Say a tank has just enough co2 when it's freshly trimmed, but two weeks later when biomass has doubled and circulation isnt what it used to be, the plants have to switch gears which causes growth to stall for a while. Then about the time they are adjusting to lower levels, boom, here comes a good trim and cleaning and co2 is back in abundance again. Well the plants start adapting to that... again. Rinse and repeat.

That is what's meant by unstable co2, and some plants tolerate it better than others. The ones who dont tolerate it well can be described as "good co2 indicators."

Whereas in a low tech aquarium, the plants can adjust with high rubisco (etc) and cruise a long fine because nothing is really changing. But that's not the same as tolerating "poor co2" in a co2 injected tank.
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post #118 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 10:20 PM Thread Starter
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One of the most popular questions in the low tech/non CO2 injected forum is "can I grow dwarf baby tears without CO2"
My answer to them is that.. "Failure rate of HC without CO2 is about 95%, that's why you see few low tech tanks with them. However, the 5% that succeed will be quick to post their pictures and brag about their success. Be wary of folks that claim anything is possible, just to brag about their results and boost their ego."

Hairgrass, HC, I've grown them without CO2, but I won't ever recommend them to folks without CO2 without telling them the average expected outcomes.



Even though I favor lean dosing myself, I find no need to constantly put down folks that find success with other methods. Its easy to see who is here to spread genuine knowledge openly, and those that are here just to place themselves on a pedestal.

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post #119 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 12:55 AM
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there were many people who thought they were spreading the genuine knowledge for the last many years, they ended up belonging to that 5% later on.

genuine answer about HC: HC never was or never is a good indicator of CO2, the pic i posted of the HC might even look better than most HC out there which are grown under CO2, this HC was grown from one small clump i put in the center and it spread quite well over few months, it was simple method: add a decent light and decent substrate, add few fish and shrimp, almost no surface movement and watch this guy grow without CO2

Last edited by happi; 04-23-2019 at 01:07 AM. Reason: NA
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post #120 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Xiaozhuang View Post
One of the most popular questions in the low tech/non CO2 injected forum is "can I grow dwarf baby tears without CO2"
My answer to them is that.. "Failure rate of HC without CO2 is about 95%, that's why you see few low tech tanks with them. However, the 5% that succeed will be quick to post their pictures and brag about their success. Be wary of folks that claim anything is possible, just to brag about their results and boost their ego." Hairgrass, HC, I've grown them without CO2, but I won't ever recommend them to folks without CO2 without telling them the average expected outcomes.
.
This pretty much echos my thoughts from above.

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Originally Posted by Asteroid View Post
...

Here's the thing. That looks good, but it's not really a myth since you could take 100 tanks here on TPT and they will have bad results growing HC without co2, but if you keep everything the same and simply add co2 the HC takes off and grows very lush. So at the end of the day, your trying to help the typical aquarist without the experience or dedication you might have. I have grown HC and Riccia (submersed) without co2 as well, but I still wouldn't recommend it to the community at large.
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...add a decent light and decent substrate, add few fish and shrimp, almost no surface movement and watch this guy grow without CO2
Now your going beyond stating that HC is simply a bad indicator for good co2. That simply does not happen in the vast majority of tanks, so it's just not good information to put out there in that form.
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