When to know if you are over-thinking fertilization - Page 5 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #61 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by redneck joe View Post
Agreed
Never knew fish and plants could cause this much drama.
I get you feeling that way, but in comparison to other episodes this is nothing.

If you compare it to the days of the micro tox wars, this is only a skirmish at best. That was full on brutal warfare. I think the peak was around late 2015 early 2016. This is child's play compared to that.

And as sometimes happens, it drifts from the original topic of the thread, which is unfortunate, as I think it is a valid one.


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post #62 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 12:56 PM
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Almost as annoying as "everything is a micro tox" issue is "everything is a Ca / Mg deficiency." There are some members regardless of how hard the water is. The reason someone has massive algae covering everything is because their micro mix lacks CA and/or Mg
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post #63 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 01:15 PM
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Almost as annoying as "everything is a micro tox" issue is "everything is a Ca / Mg deficiency." There are some members regardless of how hard the water is. The reason someone has massive algae covering everything is because their micro mix lacks CA and/or Mg
My water has gH of 17 degrees and I still gH boost... Every tank is different, and if plants are showing Ca or Mg deficiencies than of course it will be recommended to gH boost, will that solve bad algae issues? No... not directly, will it help... likely yes, and it most certainly wont hurt.
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post #64 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Quagulator View Post
My water has gH of 17 degrees and I still gH boost... Every tank is different, and if plants are showing Ca or Mg deficiencies than of course it will be recommended to gH boost, will that solve bad algae issues? No... not directly, will it help... likely yes, and it most certainly wont hurt.
I'm not saying there aren't cases where you need the boost, but in the spirit of micro tox everytime it was the same with the Ca/Mg pushers. It was every single tank that had algae issues regardless of what/if any deficiency was shown.

The vast majority of plants do fine with the small amount of Ca/Mg that is in tap plus micro. Again not saying it's never needed.
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post #65 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 01:25 PM
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For the ADA solar RGB They hang around 6-7 inches off the rim. Some folks took some readings, based on what I can eyeball, its definitely higher than 80 PAR at substrate for a single unit over a 90p tank.
The lights look a little higher in the photos on your website in most of the tanks but scale can be deceiving I guess.
I am stumped, if they are running 80+ par and lean ferts, the amazonia must be a huge difference maker.
I have Tropica Aquasoil and I can't run my light at 80+ par at the substrate the hardscape would be at 120 - 200 in places and it will get algae easily with only a carpet and small stem plant mass tank.

I did notice some Iwagumi scapes where the rocks are really green at the ADA tank.

High Light + Lean Dosing(+aquasoil) = Slow Growth (and not too much Algae)?

I didn't think this was possible, but if you get as much N and P from the aquasoil as needed and just dose K and a little Fe.
That is how they do it?

I'd love to get to a state where this is possible, I just bought the Twinstar 600s so I have the power to do it, but to stay algae free I suspect would require a whole new rescape and change in understanding of how to prevent algae.

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For that particular tank with wood, I'm using a single BML XB, a few inches off the rim - so light levels are pretty high as well.
I think whether flow is an issue or not does depend on what plants you are using in what spot. Deadspots work fine for plants that don't need much flow to grow. Detritus build-up is an issue, but that can be handled with light vacuuming at each water change. I used a single Ehiem ecco pro 300 on the tank - so it had barely 4x turnover (yikes)....
Frankly, I think growing low requirement plants at slow speed allowed me to get away with slow flow, etc.
It would seem if the setup is done well, you can break all the rules, high light, lean dosing, limited water changes and maintenance and still low growth and little algae. I'd love to learn more how to setup a tank to succeed in that way.
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post #66 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 01:26 PM
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I'm not saying there aren't cases where you need the boost, but in the spirit of micro tox everytime it was the same with the Ca/Mg pushers. It was every single tank that had algae issues regardless of what/if any deficiency was shown.

The vast majority of plants do fine with the small amount of Ca/Mg that is in tap plus micro. Again not saying it's never needed.
EI dosing calls for gH boost... PPS calls for Mg dosing... Of course it will be constantly recommended. Plus its cheap and can't really hurt anything (unless you're dumping loads of extra K into the tank).
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post #67 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Quagulator View Post
EI dosing calls for gH boost... .
Again, not trying to argue, but that is an untrue statement. I've been dosing EI pretty much from the beginning and have never used a GH boost. The standard EI Dosing guidelines were:

EI target ranges
CO2 range 25-30 ppm
NO3 range 5-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
KH range 3-5

If your water is very soft, generally you would add the boost, but it's not really part of standard EI dosing.
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post #68 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 01:46 PM
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Again, not trying to argue, but that is an untrue statement.
Then lets agree to disagree. I can go on the google and find an EI dosing regime that calls for gH boost and I can go and find one that does not....

I think Tom Barr himself calls for some sort of gH boost in EI? If my memory doesn't serve me wrong...

Regardless, this is not the point of this thread I was reluctant to get involved in it so far in... my mistake.
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post #69 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Quagulator View Post
Then lets agree to disagree. I can go on the google and find an EI dosing regime that calls for gH boost and I can go and find one that does not....

I think Tom Barr himself calls for some sort of gH boost in EI? If my memory doesn't serve me wrong...

Regardless, this is not the point of this thread I was reluctant to get involved in it so far in... my mistake.
It's not a problem, we are discussing it (arguing in a good sense). Just saying it's not needed for EI if your water and/or micros are sufficient. It's conditional.
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post #70 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 01:57 PM
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It's conditional.
Yes

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post #71 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 02:06 PM
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EI dosing calls for gH boost... PPS calls for Mg dosing... Of course it will be constantly recommended. Plus its cheap and can't really hurt anything (unless you're dumping loads of extra K into the tank).
If I've noticed anything in the share your dosing thread, its that Greggz and others are reducing K and Fe.
I simply have to question Tom Barr and his contention that K levels don't matter. 100ppm? 50ppm? 30ppm? 20ppm?

I get that dosing ranges can be much wider in a very healthy tank full of plants but if lowering Potassium allows for happier plants, its possible in a system with weaker/less established plants this could be even more the case.

Interesting thing about ADA vs EI on Dennis's site, the K ranges are quite similar in both unlike everythingelse.

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/...rs-how-to.html

EI dosage per week (ppm)
POTASSIUM (K) 20 - 30
IRON (Fe) 0.5 - 1

ADA
POTASSIUM (K) - 20 - 24
Iron (FE) 0.03-0.06


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post #72 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 02:13 PM
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The K dosing would be the same since the AS isn't really providing any. It' a well know fact that when you use AS you can get away with just dosing K and micros usually for 6 month or so and still get that explosive pop that AS gives. Eventually you need to dose the column more as things run low.

AS contains FE so that's that, EI is not based on substrate support.
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post #73 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 03:31 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
The lights look a little higher in the photos on your website in most of the tanks but scale can be deceiving I guess.
I am stumped, if they are running 80+ par and lean ferts, the amazonia must be a huge difference maker.
I have Tropica Aquasoil and I can't run my light at 80+ par at the substrate the hardscape would be at 120 - 200 in places and it will get algae easily with only a carpet and small stem plant mass tank.

I did notice some Iwagumi scapes where the rocks are really green at the ADA tank.

High Light + Lean Dosing(+aquasoil) = Slow Growth (and not too much Algae)?

I didn't think this was possible, but if you get as much N and P from the aquasoil as needed and just dose K and a little Fe.
That is how they do it?

It would seem if the setup is done well, you can break all the rules, high light, lean dosing, limited water changes and maintenance and still low growth and little algae. I'd love to learn more how to setup a tank to succeed in that way.
They replenish the soil now and then. They do have 1 or 2 tanks (older ones from what I saw when I visited) that has more serious dust on rocks. The rest of them are pretty clean. And also they can just replace plants that are not doing well - so pictures can be deceiving, they remove types of plants that are not doing well over time. ADA seem to have updated their fertilizer range (I'm not updated on that, but I think they have NO3 dosing now... not sure in what amounts).

Tank cleanliness plays a large role. My farm tank has 8 Tubes of T5 over a 47gallon - extrapolating from PAR tables that is nearer to 200 umols at the substrate than 100... that tank is dosed quite lean as well but just as spotless. Vin kutty came and saw that setup for himself - and we pretty much concluded that its more the effect of consistent plant upkeep (pruning, replanting) & maintenance (vacuum substrate now and then), consistency/quality of water parameters, biological stability of a matured tank - things that can be definitely replicated elsewhere with "some training and experience". Experience being to tell if a plant needs work done or prefers a certain spot rather than another. As some folks would say this is "no new information" - but then if you look at the state of their tanks, why are their results less impressive than some others. I do think that there are many finer points to plant husbandry - its just that it can be difficult to articulate or may be scenario/tank specific. I think that more light accelerates algae issues, but if you have very high light but no other triggers for algae, the tank will still remain clean. Similarly, if a tank has other fundamental issues (plant health, or not matured biological stability) - then having less light merely triggers the algae more slower, it doesn't solve the issue entirely. I guess this is similar for nutrients; higher NO3 for example exaggerates green dust algae issues, but if your tank has no algae triggers to start with, then you can run higher values if you want.



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post #74 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 04:42 PM
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The K dosing would be the same since the AS isn't really providing any.
ADA Aqua Soil Analyse - Aquascaping - Aquarium - Flowgrow

[2]ADA Aqua Soil and Power sand analysis(Barr) - ADA aqua soil Amazonia I

NH4-N: 262.89(mg/kg)
NO3-N: 9.19(mg/kg)
Olsen-P: 111.3(mg/kg)
X-K: 390(mg/kg)
Fe: 324.9(mg/kg)
Cu: 1.2(mg/kg)

[3]ADA Aqua Soil Analyse(Coring) - ADA aqua soil Amazonia I

NH4: 22.1(mg/kg)
NH4-N: 28.5(mg/kg)
NO3-N: 3.3(mg/kg)
P2O5: 20(mg/kg)
PO4: 26.8(mg/kg)
Mg: 50(mg/kg)
K2O: 80(mg/kg)
K: 66.4(mg/kg)
Fe: 160(mg/kg)
Mn: 36(mg/kg)

Low not nothing. Take this testing with a grain of salt.
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post #75 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 04:56 PM
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@cl3537

Do you really want to go there? You know what I mean. It doesn't provide anything significant. What do you think the first and most frequently added fert is with ADA? Brighty K.
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