Flourish Ferts - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
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Flourish Ferts

Hello, I use Flourish comprehensive, trace, and iron. I know iron can be dosed on the same day as either of those. But, how long is best to wait between comprehensive and trace so they dont bond together?
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 09:27 PM
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There is a dosing schedule here https://www.seachem.com/downloads/ch...Dose-Chart.pdf at the Seachem site that might help.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 02:04 AM
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The only 'bonding' that might occur is when lots of PO4 is added at the same time as Flourish Iron (note that Flourish Iron is different from other chelated iron products). However, I wouldn't even worry much about this.

The Flourish (Comprehensive) and Trace are somewhat similar, but the Flourish (Comprehensive) could be giving you a false sense of security. It has very little of the macros (N-P-K), especially if you have high light and inject CO2, and your tap probably has more than enough Ca and Mg (a GH test kit will tell you). My suggestion is to test your NO3 and PO4 levels to determine how much, if any, needs to be added. Potassium (K) definitely needs to be added. Dosing N, P and, K separately (either using Seachem's N, P and K or others) may be a better approach than using Flourish (Comprehensive).

If you can tell us all about your setup, we can give much better guidance.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 04:43 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deanna View Post
The only 'bonding' that might occur is when lots of PO4 is added at the same time as Flourish Iron (note that Flourish Iron is different from other chelated iron products). However, I wouldn't even worry much about this.


The Flourish (Comprehensive) and Trace are somewhat similar, but the Flourish (Comprehensive) could be giving you a false sense of security. It has very little of the macros (N-P-K), especially if you have high light and inject CO2, and your tap probably has more than enough Ca and Mg (a GH test kit will tell you). My suggestion is to test your NO3 and PO4 levels to determine how much, if any, needs to be added. Potassium (K) definitely needs to be added. Dosing N, P and, K separately (either using Seachem's N, P and K or others) may be a better approach than using Flourish (Comprehensive).

If you can tell us all about your setup, we can give much better guidance.

I have a 30 gallon tall with soil, gravel, driftwood, pretty heavily planted, low to medium light, no CO2 yet, and aquaclear 50, RO water. I have jungle val, amazon sword, scarlet temple, anubias nancon and barteri, narrow leaf sag, moneywort, and dwarf clover. I use the master test kit so I dont have gh or kh test kits though I need to get them.

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Originally Posted by shewolf View Post
There is a dosing schedule here https://www.seachem.com/downloads/ch...Dose-Chart.pdf at the Seachem site that might help.
Thank you!

Last edited by Darkblade48; 04-01-2019 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 07:33 AM
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I have a 30 gallon tall with soil, gravel, driftwood, pretty heavily planted, low to medium light, no CO2 yet, and aquaclear 50, RO water.
Just a note I never had reliable good results with Seachem Comprehensive and RO water. My tank was first short on nitrate, I had to add more, Then I had to add phosphate. Then I discovered the Ca and Mg levels were so low that I had to add a GH booster. Even after all that the results were still not good. Then using rotalabutterfly nutrient calculator I noticed my zinc and copper levels were both at 0.001 PPM. That is simply not enough copper or zinc. Algae issues were constant and it took me a lot of time to figure all this out. At that point my tank crashed and I lost most of my fish. I eventually made my own micro fertilizer and Added NPK and made my own GH booster. Now my tank is typically runs well and some of the plants are pearling daily.

Seachem fertilizers are not well balanced for RO water. Seachems recipe may work well if you are using moderately hard tap water and your home has copper pipes and your utility is using galvanized iron pipe. The pipes would add enough copper and zinc to the tap water. (Unless you have a new home with plastic pipe and your water utility installed new epoxy coated metal pipe). Additionally if you have a heavily stocked tank your fish may produce enough nitrate and phosphate from their waist to get good result.

AndThe problems with Seachem are not unique. Most fertilizer don't have calcium nickel and very low levels of zinc and copper. This means most fertilizers are designed for Tap water and may not work well with RO (depending on how well your RO system works).

Quote:
There is a dosing schedule here https://www.seachem.com/downloads/ch...Dose-Chart.pdf at the Seachem site that might help.

This dosing schedule is an excellent eample of what is wrong with Seachem. They recommend you buy what 10 different products. 2 sources of micro nutrients, 2 sources of potassium, 2 sources of nitrogen, 2 sources phosphate, and 3 different sources of iron (Equilibrium, iron, and comprehensive). If Seachem Comprehensive was truly comprehensive you shouldn't need all the other products.

The soil in your tank may help you since it will have some nutrients. MY substrate is inert and has no nutrients. If you haven't seen it you might want to look at this long thread about micro fertilizers.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...ix-thread.html
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by freshwater.rain View Post
I have a 30 gallon tall with soil, gravel, driftwood, pretty heavily planted, low to medium light, no CO2 yet, and aquaclear 50, RO water. I have jungle val, amazon sword, scarlet temple, anubias nancon and barteri, narrow leaf sag, moneywort, and dwarf clover. I use the master test kit so I dont have gh or kh test kits though I need to get them.Thank you!
If you are sure that you have low-light (<50 PAR at the substrate), you don’t need CO2 injection, although CO2 injection always makes it possible to improve plant health.

For low-light without CO2 injection, I would use glutaraldehyde products such as Flourish Excel or NilocG Enhance, which will benefit most plants as it provides some additional carbon. I found it especially beneficial in my old low-light setup. However, when dosed daily, as per instructions, it may melt Anacharis (Egeria/Elodia), Vals, Duckweed and Marimo moss balls (which are a form of algae). These plants can be trained to use it if adapted slowly by not doing the recommended “initial” weekly dose and then just half-dosing every other day, gradually building up to recommended levels. Vals, for example, will initially melt and then re-grow fully acclimated to it. Another benefit is that it will hamper hair algae, although these low doses won’t completely eliminate it.

If you are serious about planted tanks, I would recommend getting good test kits. My favorites are:
NO3: Salifert (much better precision than API)
PO4: Salifert for readings <3 ppm and API for readings >3 ppm
GH/KH: API
TDS and pH: test meters as opposed to reagent test kits, although the API pH kit will do.

It may be that your fish, combined with the Flourish (Comprehensive), are generating enough NO3 and PO4, but we won’t know without seeing the test results. As @Surf mentioned, the Flourish (Comprehensive) can be on the weak side. Testing will let you know. However, the Flourish (Comprehensive) will definitely not provide enough Ca, Mg and K to re-mineralize RO/DI water. Since you like Seachem’s products (and they are generally quite good), you should get their Equilibrium to re-mineralize the RO/DI water. The Flourish Trace can continue to be used per the directions.

The “rotalabutterfly nutrient calculator” that @Surf mentioned can be found here: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator
It would be very helpful to you to get to know the calculators on that website. With them, you can better tune your desired nutrient levels. There are two broad approaches to this. One is PPS and the other EI. They are both described throughout this forum and you can buy the forum’s guide to planted tanks. For a low-light tank, I would tend toward the PPS approach, but there are low-light EI possibilities as well.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 10:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf View Post
Quote:
I have a 30 gallon tall with soil, gravel, driftwood, pretty heavily planted, low to medium light, no CO2 yet, and aquaclear 50, RO water.
Just a note I never had reliable good results with Seachem Comprehensive and RO water. My tank was first short on nitrate, I had to add more, Then I had to add phosphate. Then I discovered the Ca and Mg levels were so low that I had to add a GH booster. Even after all that the results were still not good. Then using rotalabutterfly nutrient calculator I noticed my zinc and copper levels were both at 0.001 PPM. That is simply not enough copper or zinc. Algae issues were constant and it took me a lot of time to figure all this out. At that point my tank crashed and I lost most of my fish. I eventually made my own micro fertilizer and Added NPK and made my own GH booster. Now my tank is typically runs well and some of the plants are pearling daily.

Seachem fertilizers are not well balanced for RO water. Seachems recipe may work well if you are using moderately hard tap water and your home has copper pipes and your utility is using galvanized iron pipe. The pipes would add enough copper and zinc to the tap water. (Unless you have a new home with plastic pipe and your water utility installed new epoxy coated metal pipe). Additionally if you have a heavily stocked tank your fish may produce enough nitrate and phosphate from their waist to get good result.

AndThe problems with Seachem are not unique. Most fertilizer don't have calcium nickel and very low levels of zinc and copper. This means most fertilizers are designed for Tap water and may not work well with RO (depending on how well your RO system works).

Quote:
There is a dosing schedule here https://www.seachem.com/downloads/ch...Dose-Chart.pdf at the Seachem site that might help.

This dosing schedule is an excellent eample of what is wrong with Seachem. They recommend you buy what 10 different products. 2 sources of micro nutrients, 2 sources of potassium, 2 sources of nitrogen, 2 sources phosphate, and 3 different sources of iron (Equilibrium, iron, and comprehensive). If Seachem Comprehensive was truly comprehensive you shouldn't need all the other products.

The soil in your tank may help you since it will have some nutrients. MY substrate is inert and has no nutrients. If you haven't seen it you might want to look at this long thread about micro fertilizers.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...ix-thread.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanna View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by freshwater.rain View Post
I have a 30 gallon tall with soil, gravel, driftwood, pretty heavily planted, low to medium light, no CO2 yet, and aquaclear 50, RO water. I have jungle val, amazon sword, scarlet temple, anubias nancon and barteri, narrow leaf sag, moneywort, and dwarf clover. I use the master test kit so I dont have gh or kh test kits though I need to get them.Thank you!
If you are sure that you have low-light (<50 PAR at the substrate), you don’t need CO2 injection, although CO2 injection always makes it possible to improve plant health.

For low-light without CO2 injection, I would use glutaraldehyde products such as Flourish Excel or NilocG Enhance, which will benefit most plants as it provides some additional carbon. I found it especially beneficial in my old low-light setup. However, when dosed daily, as per instructions, it may melt Anacharis (Egeria/Elodia), Vals, Duckweed and Marimo moss balls (which are a form of algae). These plants can be trained to use it if adapted slowly by not doing the recommended “initial” weekly dose and then just half-dosing every other day, gradually building up to recommended levels. Vals, for example, will initially melt and then re-grow fully acclimated to it. Another benefit is that it will hamper hair algae, although these low doses won’t completely eliminate it.

If you are serious about planted tanks, I would recommend getting good test kits. My favorites are:
NO3: Salifert (much better precision than API)
PO4: Salifert for readings <3 ppm and API for readings >3 ppm
GH/KH: API
TDS and pH: test meters as opposed to reagent test kits, although the API pH kit will do.

It may be that your fish, combined with the Flourish (Comprehensive), are generating enough NO3 and PO4, but we won’t know without seeing the test results. As @Surf mentioned, the Flourish (Comprehensive) can be on the weak side. Testing will let you know. However, the Flourish (Comprehensive) will definitely not provide enough Ca, Mg and K to re-mineralize RO/DI water. Since you like Seachem’s products (and they are generally quite good), you should get their Equilibrium to re-mineralize the RO/DI water. The Flourish Trace can continue to be used per the directions.

The “rotalabutterfly nutrient calculator” that @Surf mentioned can be found here: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator
It would be very helpful to you to get to know the calculators on that website. With them, you can better tune your desired nutrient levels. There are two broad approaches to this. One is PPS and the other EI. They are both described throughout this forum and you can buy the forum’s guide to planted tanks. For a low-light tank, I would tend toward the PPS approach, but there are low-light EI possibilities as well.
Both of you had very good points, thank you. So once I run out of Flourish then I was planning to use easy green instead. Is that any better? I know people rave about it.
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 12:10 AM
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Both of you had very good points, thank you. So once I run out of Flourish then I was planning to use easy green instead. Is that any better? I know people rave about it.
Fertilizer is fertilizer. I don't think it's a matter of one being better over another. It's a matter of what macros and micros you are getting and whether they are delivering what you, usually specifically, need/want in your setup. Many of us simply buy the dry ferts and mix it ourselves (lots cheaper that way) in order to reach our nutrient targets. If Easy Green has the balance of macros and micros you need, then it's good. My problem with it is that I can't plug it into Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator to see what it can do. So, you'll have to make that determination by crunching the numbers from their ingredients list.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 02:21 AM
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Fertilizer is fertilizer. I don't think it's a matter of one being better over another. It's a matter of what macros and micros you are getting and whether they are delivering what you, usually specifically, need/want in your setup.
Sorry Deanna I have to disagree with you on this. If you look at how much of each nutrient a fertilizer supplies you will see that there are some big differences. For example look at API leaf zone. you find it at most major pet stores There are 14 nutrients plants need to grow. Leaf Zone only has 2, potassium and iron. If you are using RO water there is no way your are going to get any growth without the other 12 nutreients. About several times a year I see someone asking for help with their plants and they are using Leaf zone. In fact a saw a post this morning asking for help and the fertilizer used was API leaf zone. I couldn't reply at the time and now I cannot find that post.

i have looked at many fertilizers and 95% of them don't have any calcium and then those that do have 1 ppm or less .. That is simply not enough. Calcium deficiencies are being diagnosed many times and frequently adding a GH booster does help. Even tanks using CsM+B and following EI dosing guidelines are also showing calcium deficiencies or magnesium deficiencies. Tap water often has a lot of copper and zinc do corrosion of water pipes. I measured copper in my tap water and found it at 50ppm, about 5 times higher than needed. And recently saw a water report that showed very soft water with 0.34ppm Zinc As a result most fertilizers are low in zinc and copper. Aquarium coop easy green has no copper and Nilocg Thrive has less than0.001 of copper and 0.0018ppm of zinc. In the custom micro mix thread many are dosing zinc at 0.02 ppm. Burr740 had his water tested and it had 0.017 copper. So he adds very little copper others are up to about 0.015. I am using 0.01ppm CU in my RO tank.

Quote:
Both of you had very good points, thank you. So once I run out of Flourish then I was planning to use easy green instead. Is that any better? I know people rave about it.
Saddly Easy green fertilizer has no copper in it. In fact I have looked at a lot of fertilizers and haven't found any that I would recommend for use with RO water. Mainly due to the low Zinc and Copper levels they provide. So I have two suggestions use either easy green or Nilocg.com thrive and and use a mix of RO and Tap water. I would think a ratio of about 50 to 75% RO water with the rest being tap water. But you would have to experiment with the mix to find the optimal ratio of RO to Tap. The other option is to make your own macro fertilizer which is what Have done.

For your reference I am currently dosing 0.1ppm iron DTPA, 0.05 MnSO4, 0.02 boric acid, 0.02 ZnSO4, 0.01 CuSO4, 0.001na,MoO4 (sodium molt date), 0.001 NiSO4. I mix this with DI water with a PH of 5 or less. Distilled Vinegar works well but I have also used citric acid. I use calcium sulfate and magnesium sulfate (3 parts Ca to 1 part Mg) to maintain my desired gh. And then I dose 10ppm potassium nitrate, and 1ppm potassium mono phosphate. I use www. Rotalabutterfly.com nutrient calculator to calculate the weight of each I add to the tank. The following link is to a long thread that has a lot of useful information in it.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-thread-3.html
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 03:51 AM
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Sorry Deanna I have to disagree with you on this.
Actually, you don't disagree with me. I was talking about fertilizer, as in salts for example, not fertilizer packages. That 's why I suggested that the OP look at the packages to decide which one fits what he needs. My point, perhaps misunderstood, was that NO3 is NO3, no matter where it is found and only the dosing levels are different in one package vs. another.

Or ...do you still disagree?
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 04:34 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Surf View Post
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Fertilizer is fertilizer. I don't think it's a matter of one being better over another. It's a matter of what macros and micros you are getting and whether they are delivering what you, usually specifically, need/want in your setup.
Sorry Deanna I have to disagree with you on this. If you look at how much of each nutrient a fertilizer supplies you will see that there are some big differences. For example look at API leaf zone. you find it at most major pet stores There are 14 nutrients plants need to grow. Leaf Zone only has 2, potassium and iron. If you are using RO water there is no way your are going to get any growth without the other 12 nutreients. About several times a year I see someone asking for help with their plants and they are using Leaf zone. In fact a saw a post this morning asking for help and the fertilizer used was API leaf zone. I couldn't reply at the time and now I cannot find that post.

i have looked at many fertilizers and 95% of them don't have any calcium and then those that do have 1 ppm or less .. That is simply not enough. Calcium deficiencies are being diagnosed many times and frequently adding a GH booster does help. Even tanks using CsM+B and following EI dosing guidelines are also showing calcium deficiencies or magnesium deficiencies. Tap water often has a lot of copper and zinc do corrosion of water pipes. I measured copper in my tap water and found it at 50ppm, about 5 times higher than needed. And recently saw a water report that showed very soft water with 0.34ppm Zinc As a result most fertilizers are low in zinc and copper. Aquarium coop easy green has no copper and Nilocg Thrive has less than0.001 of copper and 0.0018ppm of zinc. In the custom micro mix thread many are dosing zinc at 0.02 ppm. Burr740 had his water tested and it had 0.017 copper. So he adds very little copper others are up to about 0.015. I am using 0.01ppm CU in my RO tank.

Quote:
Both of you had very good points, thank you. So once I run out of Flourish then I was planning to use easy green instead. Is that any better? I know people rave about it.
Saddly Easy green fertilizer has no copper in it. In fact I have looked at a lot of fertilizers and haven't found any that I would recommend for use with RO water. Mainly due to the low Zinc and Copper levels they provide. So I have two suggestions use either easy green or Nilocg.com thrive and and use a mix of RO and Tap water. I would think a ratio of about 50 to 75% RO water with the rest being tap water. But you would have to experiment with the mix to find the optimal ratio of RO to Tap. The other option is to make your own macro fertilizer which is what Have done.

For your reference I am currently dosing 0.1ppm iron DTPA, 0.05 MnSO4, 0.02 boric acid, 0.02 ZnSO4, 0.01 CuSO4, 0.001na,MoO4 (sodium molt date), 0.001 NiSO4. I mix this with DI water with a PH of 5 or less. Distilled Vinegar works well but I have also used citric acid. I use calcium sulfate and magnesium sulfate (3 parts Ca to 1 part Mg) to maintain my desired gh. And then I dose 10ppm potassium nitrate, and 1ppm potassium mono phosphate. I use www. Rotalabutterfly.com nutrient calculator to calculate the weight of each I add to the tank. The following link is to a long thread that has a lot of useful information in it.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-thread-3.html

I'll try mixing in some tap water with dechlorinator of course, just to clarify. I'm not ready to get into mixing my own ferts yet because I'm fairly new to live plants so I'm still learning right now. Thank you for the advice &#x1f600;
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 04:19 PM
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Just a note I never had reliable good results with Seachem Comprehensive and RO water. My tank was first short on nitrate, I had to add more, Then I had to add phosphate. Then I discovered the Ca and Mg levels were so low that I had to add a GH booster. Even after all that the results were still not good. Then using rotalabutterfly nutrient calculator I noticed my zinc and copper levels were both at 0.001 PPM. That is simply not enough copper or zinc. Algae issues were constant and it took me a lot of time to figure all this out. At that point my tank crashed and I lost most of my fish. I eventually made my own micro fertilizer and Added NPK and made my own GH booster. Now my tank is typically runs well and some of the plants are pearling daily.

Seachem fertilizers are not well balanced for RO water. Seachems recipe may work well if you are using moderately hard tap water and your home has copper pipes and your utility is using galvanized iron pipe. The pipes would add enough copper and zinc to the tap water. (Unless you have a new home with plastic pipe and your water utility installed new epoxy coated metal pipe). Additionally if you have a heavily stocked tank your fish may produce enough nitrate and phosphate from their waist to get good result.

AndThe problems with Seachem are not unique. Most fertilizer don't have calcium nickel and very low levels of zinc and copper. This means most fertilizers are designed for Tap water and may not work well with RO (depending on how well your RO system works).




This dosing schedule is an excellent eample of what is wrong with Seachem. They recommend you buy what 10 different products. 2 sources of micro nutrients, 2 sources of potassium, 2 sources of nitrogen, 2 sources phosphate, and 3 different sources of iron (Equilibrium, iron, and comprehensive). If Seachem Comprehensive was truly comprehensive you shouldn't need all the other products.

The soil in your tank may help you since it will have some nutrients. MY substrate is inert and has no nutrients. If you haven't seen it you might want to look at this long thread about micro fertilizers.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...ix-thread.html

I've had a similar experience with Seachem products and RO water - I have a lightly stocked tank and have found that it's necessary to use Equilibrium (K/Ca/Mg), Flourish Nitrogen (N), Flourish Phosphorus (P), and Flourish (very similar to Flourish Comprehensive) for micros/trace. With that combo though, I've had pretty good success... most plants pearl and grow quickly.



It's too bad that they don't have an all-in-one that is actually "comprehensive", providing both macros and micros/trace. I agree with you in deducing that the majority of their customer base must be using tap water in a well-stocked tank. The upside in having them all seperate is having the opportunity to control the ratios... which is nice, once you get a good grasp on the effect of each nutrient on plant health/growth.

Last edited by Quicksilver2299; 04-11-2019 at 06:29 PM. Reason: Added content
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