What plants might miss? - The Planted Tank Forum
 4Likes
  • 1 Post By Seattle_Aquarist
  • 1 Post By Seattle_Aquarist
  • 1 Post By Seattle_Aquarist
  • 1 Post By Norbertdobrotka
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-15-2018, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5
What plants might miss?

Hi there,

It's my first time writing here, but definitely not my first time reading. So far I've been able to gain a great knowledge from this forum.
I've been into aquariums for nearly 15 years but since I was mainly in love with shrimps the aquascaping world is fairly new to me.

I started my 2nd aquascape attempt in august which is a 60P iwagumi tank based on my good success with my first try. But I ran into some difficulties lately that I just don't know how to go about anymore. My plants basically stopped growing or they do so on a very slow pace and old leaves seems to be just yellowing and slowly dying. Well they still alive and are looking exactly like something that easily recover but I just ran out of ideas.

BTW a quick shoutout to @Seattle_Aquarist who made me go for my first post on the forum after commenting in an other thread where someone seemed to have the same issues.

So here is some fact about the tank and I'm hoping you guys can help me.

Equipment
Size: 64L
Filtration: Oase Biomaster 350
Light: Chihiros A Series 39W 8 hours a day
Co2: Pressurised system about 2-3 drops a sec
Fertiliser: ADA Brighty K + Mineral + Nitrogen + Iron 4 pumps each a day

Water parameters
PH: 6.0-6.1 when co2 is running 6.3 in the morning before it's on
RO water
TDS: 130-140
KH: 2 (It was 0 for a while but I started using soda bicarbonate to increase this a few days ago.)
Ammonia: 0
NO2: 0


Live stock: 11 Amano shrimp + 3 Otocinclus

Plants: Tropica TC Staurogyne Repens, Monte Carlo, Eleocharis mini and Riccardia on rocks (Plus some bonus hair algae on them )

I started the tank with DSM but due to too high humidity it ended up getting spiderweb like fungus so after running it that way for about 3 weeks I decided to fill the tank. (It effected the monte carlo in the middle)

It's been running for nearly two months now under water but the plants seem to have a hard time enjoying it. Interestingly hairgrass is the only one seeming to grow. Staurogyne clearly has signs of magnesium deficiency with stronger green veins.
Please give me some help on what might be the problem.

I attached some images too so maybe that helps.

Thank you to all in advance. Cheers,
Norbi
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Image from iOS (9).jpg
Views:	15
Size:	153.8 KB
ID:	872473  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Image from iOS (10).jpg
Views:	14
Size:	275.1 KB
ID:	872475  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Image from iOS (11).jpg
Views:	17
Size:	102.4 KB
ID:	872477  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Image from iOS (12).jpg
Views:	19
Size:	280.2 KB
ID:	872479  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Image from iOS (13).jpg
Views:	15
Size:	373.3 KB
ID:	872481  


Last edited by Norbertdobrotka; 11-16-2018 at 07:12 AM. Reason: Wrong profile mention.
Norbertdobrotka is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-17-2018, 02:10 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,620
Hi @Norbertdobrotka (aka Norbi),

First welcome to TPT, that is a nice tank you have there!

I looked at all your photos, downloaded two of them, then enlarged and enhanced them to get better detail. This is the one that caught my eye, I added some arrows to better describe what I see.


First, because this was a 'dry start method' tank some leaf loss is likely due to the transition from immersed to submerged growth. That said, you are correct in that I too see the interveinal chlorosis (Arrow #1; darker green leaf veins / lighter interveinal areas) in the S. repens. Also notice the "puckered" look of the leaf surfaces. You indicated that you are using RO water, what did you use to re-mineralize it?

Arrows #2 and #3 are pointing to leaves with necrosis (dead tissue). The Monte Carlo (#3 arrow) could be due to the transition from immersed to submerged or it could be due to a deficiency. The #2 arrow pointing at the S. repens looks to be too new a leaf to have been part of the dry start and it is showing necrosis along the leaf margin.

The #4 arrow is pointing a a new leaf which is one of the several leaves I spotted with a 'hooked downward leaf tip' which could indicate a calcium deficiency although it may only be sight at this point. It appears you may be using ADA Amazonia as the substrate with is a good substrate and it does contain a little magnesium but it contains no calcium. I looked at the description for the ADA Green Lightly Minerale and this is what I found:
Quote:
Green Brighty mineral is a liquid fertilizer supplying iron, magnesium and other trace elements, which are easily depleted in a planted aquarium. These elements are used for growth and pigment synthesis, and the promotion of healthy growth of aquatic plants.
It contains magnesium (although it does not state how much) and 'trace elements' but it does not state what or how much and it does not mention calcium at all. With a TDS of 140 I would hope there whould be sufficient calcium if the tank but TDS measures all cations and anions and it is possible the amount of calcium is a little low - that is why I asked what was used to re-mineralize the RO water.

Assuming that is ADA Aquasoil is the substrate, and you are dosing potassium, minerals, nitrogen, and iron it is likely that potassium, nitrogen, nor iron are deficient. I was first inclined to suggest dosing just the magnesium as I did in the thread you referenced however with the hooking leaf tips I think you would be better served by dosing a GH Booster that contains calcium and magnesium. If Seachem Equilibrium is available where you live I would recommend that. If not, TNC GH Booster would work or you can mix your own using Tom Barr's recipe:
Quote:
2 parts: K2SO4: potash of sulfur
1 part: CaSO4: Gypsum
1 part: MgSO4 Epsom salt

Might be easier to find those and make your own.
Buy say 1-2 Kg of each that is powdered and mix.
If using Equilibrium I would do an initial dose of 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Thereafter, when you dose water changes dose 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added. This should increase the hardness of your tank by about 2.0 dGH and add sufficient magnesium and calcium to cause a noticeable improvement or eliminate the deficiency symptoms. Sometimes it takes more that the dose I suggested but let's do this for two weeks.

Now the hard part.........waiting! Watch the new leaves as they emerge for the next two weeks; do not watch the existing leaves....they will not change. What you should see is the new leaves look healthier, do not have the 'puckering' we currently see, the hooking of the leaf tips should diminish, and the rate of stem growth may increase. As these new leaves mature, they should not develop the interveinal chlorosis or necrosis that is happening now.

Keep us posted as things progress! Pics are always appreciated! -Roy

Bump:
Quote:
I. Symptoms appearing first or most severely on new growth (root and shoot tips, new leaves)

A. Terminal bud usually dies. Symptoms on new growth.

2. Necrosis occurs at tip and margin of leaves causing a definite hook at leaf tip.

Calcium is essential for the growth of shoot and root tips (meristems). Growing point dies. Margins of young leaves are scalloped and abnormally green and, due to inhibition of cell wall formation, the leaf tips may be "gelatinous" and stuck together inhibiting leaf unfolding. Stem structure is weak and peduncle collapse or stem topple may occur. Roots are stunted. Downward curl of leaf tips (hooking) occurs near terminal bud. ammonium or magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants... calcium deficiency

Differentiating between calcium and boron deficiency symptoms: When calcium is deficient, there is a characteristic hooking of the youngest leaf tips. However, when boron is deficient, the breakdown occurs at the bases of the youngest leaves. Death of the terminal growing points is the final result in both cases.
Quote:
II. Symptoms do not appear first or most severely on youngest leaves: Effect general on whole plant or localized on older, lower leaves.

C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is remobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, plants are brittle and branches have a tendency to curve upward. Twigs are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely.
Norbertdobrotka likes this.

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-17-2018, 10:29 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5
Hi @Seattle_Aquarist

Thank you for your time and through answer I really appreciate it.

First of I'd like to confirm and clarify on some of the additional questions you had.
Substrate is indeed ADA Amazonia + I used a bit (2 liters) of Tropica Substrate below that. For a better airing in the substrate due to the hight elevation being about 25cm the highest I used 3 liters of ceramic rings at the bottom so that beneficial bacterias can better take care of substrate.

Until last water change about a week ago I was using Salty Shrimp GH+ But as I discovered that this doesn't effect KH levels I decided to switch to Salty Shrimp GH/KH+

With this being said I haven't seen a change in KH levels so I decided to use Soda Bicarbonate which managed to raise the KH levels up to 2dGh. (Since then my PH level is more stable too)

As you pointed out some of those old leaves might have died because of the Emerged - Submerged transition but I believe after 1.5 moths most of my leafs are probably new. So considering that most of these issues are connected to some kind of deficiency.

In one of your quotes where it talks about Calcium deficiency it mentions that possible ammonia levels can also promote Calcium deficiency so in light of that new information I must mention I have something on my substrate at some places that looks like BGA by now they seem to be dead as they don't spread and have a black dark brownish look.

Photo of (BGA?)


On the contrary I see a good development on my hair grass. I know that they are less sensitive and I had success with it previously but maybe this also tells something extra to a better picture.


And some extra images of an other bunch of S. Repens that also has the puckering growth on new leaves.


Sorry the flicks went missing.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	F7019D72-04AE-4F79-BA10-709295E4C8F6_1542496710789.jpg
Views:	12
Size:	203.1 KB
ID:	872639  

Click image for larger version

Name:	ACB3544F-996A-4212-8762-A6A46186F83A_1542496727135.jpg
Views:	12
Size:	180.0 KB
ID:	872641  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DD02A5A0-1BEE-4B7B-91E1-42FE8B6F136A_1542496743487.jpg
Views:	12
Size:	222.2 KB
ID:	872643  


Last edited by Darkblade48; 11-18-2018 at 03:40 AM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
Norbertdobrotka is offline  
 
post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-17-2018, 11:20 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,620
Hi @Norbertdobrotka (aka Norbi),

That does look like it may have been BGA.

I think the addition of a GH Booster will definitely help alleviate some of the deficiency conditions we are seeing. Do a couple more pics before you start dosing and then as things progress over the next couple of weeks a few more pics. We will evaluate the before and after pics and see if we can see some progress at that point. This can be fixed. -Roy
Norbertdobrotka likes this.

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-17-2018, 11:35 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5
Hi Roy @Seattle_Aquarist,

Iíll for sure keep track of progress. Do you think the Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ solution will be working? Btw I already see some new growth in monte carlo but itís early to say. 🙂 Wondering if it will survive.
Norbertdobrotka is offline  
post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-17-2018, 11:56 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,620
Hi Norbi aka @Norbertdobrotka

Thanks to @emilio246 we know the composition of Salty Shrimp GH/KH+

So it does contain calcium and magnesium. You could try dosing sufficient SS GH/KH+ to increase your dGH by 2.0 degrees and see how the plants respond. I am guessing that SS is more expensive than GH Booster.
Norbertdobrotka likes this.

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-18-2018, 12:49 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5
Thank for sharing the content of SS GH+ Roy @Seattle_Aquarist
I'll keep doing the progress and will get back if anything changes to any direction.

Thanks again for your help.
Cheers,
Norbert
Seattle_Aquarist likes this.
Norbertdobrotka is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Keeping Carnivorous Plants in Your Home Aquarium forumadmin Home Page News 6 03-01-2016 07:34 PM
Algae and Nutrient Deficiencies Zapins Algae 15 12-10-2014 08:42 AM
dwarf hairgrass - buds? mrparker Plants 4 12-17-2009 07:14 PM
Here's a great how to lorax Riparium/Terrarium/Vivarium 3 06-09-2009 12:24 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome