What deficiency am I experiencing? - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
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What deficiency am I experiencing?



This is my 20 gallon long set up on 9/22/18
Paintball co2
Finnex ray2 8hrs a day with 4 hour break in between
Amazonia topped with controsoil

Tap water which is like liquid rock

Temp 80-86 degrees fahrenheit mainly 80-84F

Ferts:
Nilocg thrive daily
Seachem flourish twice per week
Seachem iron daily
Excel daily

Problem:
- Leaves are curled or wrinkled
- sunset leaves are pale
- plants donít seem to be healthy


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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 07:29 PM
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Hi @Andy22,

Welcome to TPT!

Before I retired I used to call on the Costco Distribution Center in Rancho Cucamonga.

Actually according to the local water department your average hardness is about 215 ppm or 13 dGH.

Based upon the 'rolling' or 'curling' along the longitudinal leaf axis I would suspect there is a problem with the uptake of magnesium; which is also a critical nutrient for photosynthesis which makes plants green. This could be caused by an excess of calcium or just not enough magnesium in the water. If it were me I would add 1/2 of a teaspoon of magnesium sulfate (MgSO4 / Epsom Salt - available at drug stores) to the tank twice a week. Don't change anything else, just start dosing the MgSO4. Do your 50% weekly water changes. Watch the new growth as it emerges for the next two weeks, the existing leaves will not change. Do the new leaves look greener, larger, less curling? If so you are on the correct path. The Hygrophila polysperma 'Sunset' typically has lighter leaf veins compared to the surrounding leaf tissue - which sufficient light the leaves should turn a nice reddish color. Keep us posted! -Roy
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Andy22,



Welcome to TPT!



Before I retired I used to call on the Costco Distribution Center in Rancho Cucamonga.



Actually according to the local water department your average hardness is about 215 ppm or 13 dGH.



Based upon the 'rolling' or 'curling' along the longitudinal leaf axis I would suspect there is a problem with the uptake of magnesium; which is also a critical nutrient for photosynthesis which makes plants green. This could be caused by an excess of calcium or just not enough magnesium in the water. If it were me I would add 1/2 of a teaspoon of magnesium sulfate (MgSO4 / Epsom Salt - available at drug stores) to the tank twice a week. Don't change anything else, just start dosing the MgSO4. Do your 50% weekly water changes. Watch the new growth as it emerges for the next two weeks, the existing leaves will not change. Do the new leaves look greener, larger, less curling? If so you are on the correct path. The Hygrophila polysperma 'Sunset' typically has lighter leaf veins compared to the surrounding leaf tissue - which sufficient light the leaves should turn a nice reddish color. Keep us posted! -Roy


Thank you! I will do just that and update this thread once appropriate. It was frustrating not being able to pinpoint where my problem was. I thought I had the ferts covered but the plants were not responding.


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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-04-2018, 02:48 AM Thread Starter
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What deficiency am I experiencing?

Also, I have noticed that the lower leaves are dying. It seems like only the top part of the plant is healthy and the bottoms are dying. Only the top 2-3 leaves are somewhat algae free. I have my lights on at 7hrs now. 8am-12noon then break for 4 hrs then 5-7pm. Is my lighting schedule messing with my plant health? I am also dosing excel at double the recommended dose.

I have started the MgSO4 dosing and have experienced a little boost in growth but leaves are still the same.


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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-04-2018, 09:24 PM
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The top leaves are algae free because that is your new growth adapting to your tank conditions. Everything that's ratty looking can be stripped off the stem because your plant growth is transitioning from emmersed growth to submerged growth. None of tthw original leaves that camw on the plants will makw it in the long run because they are built to live out of water. All the shiny new growth is what you want to pay attention to - that's the part that matters for diagnosis, cut off any old leaves with algae.

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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-04-2018, 10:18 PM
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Hi @Andy22,

Do you have any water parameters that you can share; specifically:

pH

dKH

dGH

nitrates (ppm of NO3)

Also, although it has only been a few days a picture of the new growth on the Hygrophila might be helpful.

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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-04-2018, 11:52 PM
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Hi @Seattle_Aquarist,

From your post above I believe you could have too much Calcium vs Magnesium. Could you have too much Magnesium vs Calcium or excess Mg is not a problem?
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-05-2018, 12:34 AM Thread Starter
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What deficiency am I experiencing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Andy22,

Do you have any water parameters that you can share; specifically:

pH

dKH

dGH

nitrates (ppm of NO3)

Also, although it has only been a few days a picture of the new growth on the Hygrophila might be helpful.


Hi Roy,
I am embarrassed to say I donít have the master test kit. I only have the test strips. Anyway, if these are of any help, here are the values:

Gh 180ppm or 10 dGH my actual values are probably higher this is the max of the strip
kh 80
ph 7.0
nitrite 0
nitrate 40

This is from the API 5 in 1 test strips.



FTS:


Overall the growth is great. I have added what I believe is a GH booster from 6yrs ago. I did 1/8 teaspoon of that.





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Last edited by Andy22; 10-09-2018 at 06:17 AM.
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-05-2018, 02:13 AM
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Hi @Andy22,

Wow! You weren't kidding about 'liquid rock' if those test strip readings are correct.

Quote:
Overall the growth is great. I have added what I believe is a GH booster from 6yrs ago. I did 1/8 teaspoon of that.
So did you not dose the magnesium and dosed the GH Booster instead?

It's a little early to tell, let's see what the next week brings.

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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-05-2018, 03:05 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Andy22,



Wow! You weren't kidding about 'liquid rock' if those test strip readings are correct.







So did you not dose the magnesium and dosed the GH Booster instead?



It's a little early to tell, let's see what the next week brings.


I did dose magnesium also. So I am sticking to your suggested dosing plan of 1/2 tsp 2x/ week.

I will be getting a test kit soon.

Will this high gh affect my flora and fauna?

I just feel like ever since we moved to our place 6 years ago, I have been struggling with growing aquatic plants and keeping shrimp.



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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-05-2018, 04:41 AM
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Hi @Andy22,

Quote:
Will this high gh affect my flora and fauna?
Yes, many species of plants and fish cannot adapt to extreme water conditions however there are species of fish and plants that thrive in 'hard water' conditions.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-06-2018, 10:50 AM
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I want to say CO2 is your biggest problem. The node spacing on your plants are extended (basically your plants look leggy). I've primarily seen this happen when CO2 is insufficient.

Track your CO2 rate by measuring your drop in pH (pH just before you start your CO2 injection vs. pH at different time intervals after injection has started with at least one measurement just before you shut off your CO2). An even better metric though is just observing how your plants respond. You should see pearling underneath the leaves of your hygro and also your a. reineckii / ludwigia (if that's what your red plants are). If those are A. reineckii then you got some serious CO2 deficiency going on based on their leaf form and internodal spacing.

For CO2 dosing, i prefer to push my tanks to the limit. I basically raise my injection rate to the point that my fauna start to get uncomfortable. Then I implement measures to increase my gaseous exchange with more surface agitation, better water surface maintenance, running airstone at night, etc.

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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-06-2018, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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I want to say CO2 is your biggest problem. The node spacing on your plants are extended (basically your plants look leggy). I've primarily seen this happen when CO2 is insufficient.



Track your CO2 rate by measuring your drop in pH (pH just before you start your CO2 injection vs. pH at different time intervals after injection has started with at least one measurement just before you shut off your CO2). An even better metric though is just observing how your plants respond. You should see pearling underneath the leaves of your hygro and also your a. reineckii / ludwigia (if that's what your red plants are). If those are A. reineckii then you got some serious CO2 deficiency going on based on their leaf form and internodal spacing.



For CO2 dosing, i prefer to push my tanks to the limit. I basically raise my injection rate to the point that my fauna start to get uncomfortable. Then I implement measures to increase my gaseous exchange with more surface agitation, better water surface maintenance, running airstone at night, etc.


I will try to increase my co2 and see if that changes things around. Thank you.


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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-06-2018, 03:37 PM
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Hello everyone. I don't mean to hijack the thread but I didn't want to start another thread when I'm having the same issues. I wanted to see if everyone thought I was having an issue with low Mg as well. If so, how much MgSO4 do you think I should be dosing to get it into the ideal range.

220 gallon tank.
Dosing CO2 30 ppm (ph is 7.25 before Co2 and 6.25 at peak of Co2).
Doing EI FERT dosing.
I do 50% water changes every week with half tap and half RODI water.

KH 2
GH 5
Ca 53 PPM (according to the water report)
Mg .0045 PPM (according the water report)
K 8.4 PPM (according to water report)

I think the KH and GH ranges are pretty good just concerned that the GH is all Ca and no Mg.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Darrin

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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 10-06-2018, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterX View Post
GH 5
Ca 53 PPM (according to the water report)
Something is not correct, your tap has GH 5 and Ca 53 ppm?

53 ppm Ca = 7.4 dGH
Ca dGH = Ca ppm / 7.144


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