What Deficiency? - The Planted Tank Forum
 10Likes
  • 1 Post By Seattle_Aquarist
  • 1 Post By Seattle_Aquarist
  • 3 Post By Seattle_Aquarist
  • 2 Post By Discusluv
  • 1 Post By Seattle_Aquarist
  • 1 Post By OVT
  • 1 Post By Greggz
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 12:15 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 4,877
What Deficiency?

Some Stats :
24 x 24x 24 inch cube
82 degrees ( discus tank”
1 - 24 inch Finnex 24/7 planted Plus SE
1- - 24 inch Current Satellite Plus Pro ( just added 3 days ago; had had 3 - 24” Finnex Planted Plus SE).

Water change 2 x 75% weekly.

Dose by the directions on back of Seachem bottles 2x weekly; 24 hours after water change.
Flourish Comprehensive 10 ml weekly, Advance 30ml weekly, Trace 30 ml weekly, Iron 10 ml weekly, Potassium 20 ml weekly, Phosphorus 15 ml weekly.
Root tabs around base of plants.
No CO2– dose Excel 2 capfuls daily- 10ml daily; 70 ml weekly

PH 7.4
GH 3/ KH 5
TDS 120

As you can see, I did recently change my light 3 days ago. But, unsure if this is the underlying factor for deficiency.

[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180807/cf4454bb49258878f8fd3727de9d78cd.jpg[/

Newer leaves seem not to have pronounced deficiency like older leaves, but appear puckered.
IMG]






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy
Discusluv is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 12:17 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 4,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
Some Stats :
24 x 24x 24 inch cube
82 degrees ( discus tank”
1 - 24 inch Finnex 24/7 planted Plus SE
1- - 24 inch Current Satellite Plus Pro ( just added 3 days ago; had had 3 - 24” Finnex Planted Plus SE).

Water change 2 x 75% weekly.

Dose by the directions on back of Seachem bottles 2x weekly; 24 hours after water change.
Flourish Comprehensive 10 ml weekly, Advance 30ml weekly, Trace 30 ml weekly, Iron 10 ml weekly, Potassium 20 ml weekly, Phosphorus 15 ml weekly.
Root tabs around base of plants.
No CO2– dose Excel 2 capfuls daily- 10ml daily; 70 ml weekly

PH 7.4
GH 3/ KH 5
TDS 120

As you can see, I did recently change my light 3 days ago. But, unsure if this is the underlying factor for deficiency.

[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180807/cf4454bb49258878f8fd3727de9d78cd.jpg[/

Newer leaves seem not to have pronounced deficiency like older leaves, but appear puckered.
IMG]






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


First picture didn’t load:




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy
Discusluv is online now  
post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 01:54 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,620
Hi @Discusluv,

In the last picture, showing the interveinal chlorosis of the leaves, is that the newer leaves or the order leaves showing the deficiency? The additional / change in light is not going to resolve this, this is a nutrient issue.
Discusluv likes this.

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
 
post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 01:55 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 4,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Discusluv,



In the last picture, showing the interveinal chlorosis of the leaves, is that the newer leaves or the order leaves showing the deficiency? The additional / change in light is not going to resolve this, this is a nutrient issue.


The last picture shows the older leaves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy
Discusluv is online now  
post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 01:56 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,620
Hi @Discusluv,


The newer leaves are a more 'normal' green coloration?
Discusluv likes this.

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 01:58 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 4,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Discusluv,





The newer leaves are a more 'normal' green coloration?


Yes, the newer leaves are greener. But, show a puckered appearance. Maybe this is the nature of the plant? I forget what this plant is. Sorry, new to plants in aquarium.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
Yes, the newer leaves are greener. But, show a puckered appearance. Maybe this is the nature of the plant? I forget what this plant is. Sorry, new to plants in aquarium.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here are a few of other plants in aquarium- do you see them as suffering from deficiency as well?




Sorry, pics are not that great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy

Last edited by Darkblade48; 08-13-2018 at 11:34 AM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
Discusluv is online now  
post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 02:29 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,620
Hi @Discusluv,

Your plant appears to be Brazilian Pennywort (Hydrocotyle leucocephala). When older leaves show signs of interveinal chlorosis as your plant is showing, and leaves show signs of 'puckering', that would indicate a magnesium deficiency.

Quote:
II. Symptoms do not appear first or most severely on youngest leaves: Effect general on whole plant or localized on older, lower leaves.

C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is re-mobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, stems are brittle and branches have a tendency to curve upward. Stems are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely.
A magnesium deficiency is caused by insufficient magnesium available to the plant / leaves as they grow. Magnesium is a mobile nutrient which means that a plant can move the nutrient to where it feels it is most needed, usually the growing tips and new leaves. When magnesium is 'stolen' from the older leaves the leaves show the interveinal chlorosis (normal green veins / lighter interveinal leaf material). That is because magnesium is a necessary nutrient for photosynthesis which gives the leaves their green color.

Why do you have a magnesium deficiency? It could be a lack of magnesium in the water column or substrate or it could be due to an excess of calcium or potassium. In your case, with a dGH of only 3.0 I would suspect there just isn't enough magnesium in your tank. Typically I would recommend just adding some magnesium sulfate (MgSO487H2O - aka Epsom Salt) to the tank to correct the problem but with the very low dGH you have I suggest adding Seachem Equilibrium to your dosing schedule. Do an initial dose of one (1) teaspoon per 10 gallons, thereafter add one (1) teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added during water changes. This dosing should increase your hardness to a dGH between 4.0 - 5.0. It will also add needed magnesium along with calcium, maganese, potassium, and iron.

Once you start dosing the Equilibrium you should start seeing a change in about two weeks. The existing leaves will not change; any leaves showing the interveinal chlorosis or 'puckering' will stay the same or may actually decline in health. Watch the new leaves as they are formed. They should not have any 'puckering' and as these new leaves mature they should not show the interveinal chlorosis. Other plants in your tank will likely improve as well, becoming greener and growing more quickly.

Questions, just ask! -Roy

Bump:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
Here are a few of other plants in aquarium- do you see them as suffering from deficiency as well?




Sorry, pics are not that great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That Nymphoides hydrophylla (aka 'sp. Taiwan') will look much better with more calcium and magnesium as will the Nymphaea (Lotus).

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 02:48 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 4,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Discusluv,



Your plant appears to be Brazilian Pennywort (Hydrocotyle leucocephala). When older leaves show signs of interveinal chlorosis as your plant is showing, and leaves show signs of 'puckering', that would indicate a magnesium deficiency.







A magnesium deficiency is caused by insufficient magnesium available to the plant / leaves as they grow. Magnesium is a mobile nutrient which means that a plant can move the nutrient to where it feels it is most needed, usually the growing tips and new leaves. When magnesium is 'stolen' from the older leaves the leaves show the interveinal chlorosis (normal green veins / lighter interveinal leaf material). That is because magnesium is a necessary nutrient for photosynthesis which gives the leaves their green color.



Why do you have a magnesium deficiency? It could be a lack of magnesium in the water column or substrate or it could be due to an excess of calcium or potassium. In your case, with a dGH of only 3.0 I would suspect there just isn't enough magnesium in your tank. Typically I would recommend just adding some magnesium sulfate (MgSO487H2O - aka Epsom Salt) to the tank to correct the problem but with the very low dGH you have I suggest adding Seachem Equilibrium to your dosing schedule. Do an initial dose of one (1) teaspoon per 10 gallons, thereafter add one (1) teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added during water changes. This dosing should increase your hardness to a dGH between 4.0 - 5.0. It will also add needed magnesium along with calcium, maganese, potassium, and iron.



Once you start dosing the Equilibrium you should start seeing a change in about two weeks. The existing leaves will not change; any leaves showing the interveinal chlorosis or 'puckering' will stay the same or may actually decline in health. Watch the new leaves as they are formed. They should not have any 'puckering' and as these new leaves mature they should not show the interveinal chlorosis. Other plants in your tank will likely improve as well, becoming greener and growing more quickly.



Questions, just ask! -Roy

Bump:



That Nymphoides hydrophylla (aka 'sp. Taiwan') will look much better with more calcium and magnesium as will the Nymphaea (Lotus).


Excellent Roy, thank you. I will order some Equilibrium right away. Much appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

@Seattle_Aquarist

Just received the Equilibrium and was getting ready to add to my aquariums and then I hesitated. Should I dose this gradually for the initial dose at 1 tsp per 10g? In the 60 gallon I have discus. The 180 and 30 g. all wild fish endemic to soft-water.

Will this initial dosing @ this rate of Equilibrium stress them--- raising the KH/GH too quickly for them to adjust?
Seattle_Aquarist and jbvamos like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy

Last edited by Darkblade48; 08-13-2018 at 11:34 AM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
Discusluv is online now  
post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 11:58 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,620
Hi @Discusluv,

Typically an increase of 1.5 dGH is not a problem for fish however discus are sensitive so if it were me I would do 1/2 the initial dose today and if the discus look fine and are eating normally after 24 hours do the other 1/2 initial dose then. Seachem Equilibrium will increase the dGH but should not effect the dKH since it contains no carbonates.
Discusluv likes this.

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-09-2018, 12:19 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 4,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Discusluv,



Typically an increase of 1.5 dGH is not a problem for fish however discus are sensitive so if it were me I would do 1/2 the initial dose today and if the discus look fine and are eating normally after 24 hours do the other 1/2 initial dose then. Seachem Equilibrium will increase the dGH but should not effect the dKH since it contains no carbonates.


Okay sounds good!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy
Discusluv is online now  
post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-09-2018, 11:36 AM
OVT
Carpe Diem
 
OVT's Avatar
 
PTrader: (144/100%)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 7,547
@Discusluv, in your Discus tank, I would also trim / remove decaying leaves / stems from Nymphoides hydrophylla.
Discusluv likes this.
OVT is offline  
post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-09-2018, 12:37 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Greggz's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Novi, MI
Posts: 5,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
1 - 24 inch Finnex 24/7 planted Plus SE
1- - 24 inch Current Satellite Plus Pro ( just added 3 days ago; had had 3 - 24” Finnex Planted Plus SE).


As you can see, I did recently change my light 3 days ago. But, unsure if this is the underlying factor for deficiency.
Here's a different thought.

When you add more light, you are creating more demand for ferts & CO2. Basically driving the tank harder, plants respond wanting more, and it's not there. So in essence you can create a deficiency that wasn't there before. Soon plants are unhappy, which in turn can lead to algae.

Even if you zero in on one deficiency, solving that one could create another. And once ferts/light get high enough, CO2 becomes the limiting factor. It's why it's referred to as a three legged stool (light/fert/CO2), if one is out of balance, things get wobbly.

Since you have mainly low light plants, you might be better off keeping the light intensity lower. Less demand for ferts & CO2.

When I was low tech, my tank was most successful with VERY low light. Slow but steady growth, and minimal if any algae.

Good luck and I hope you get it worked out.
Discusluv likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
---
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
---
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Greggz is online now  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome