wanting to build my own csm+b - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-24-2018, 03:51 AM Thread Starter
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Question wanting to build my own csm+b

where do I go to get:

DTPA Fe
Manganese Sulphate
Copper Sulphate
Zinc Sulphate
Sodium Molybdate
Borax

anything else?
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-24-2018, 04:58 AM
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You can get all of those on Amazon.com. If you have a small tank or don't want to buy 1 pound containers you can get most at Loudwolf.com. Note FE DTPA works best in aquarium with a PH less than 7.5. If your aquarium PH is higher than 7.5 I would recommend using Fe EHHDA. If you are injecting CO2 into your tank PH should not be an issue. Also most people use boric acid instead of Borax. Borax has sodium and it can react with the other ingredients making them less soluble.

You can also use Rotalabutterfly.com nutrient calculator to determine how much of each you need to add to your tank.
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-24-2018, 05:30 AM
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-25-2018, 04:09 PM
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At the price of dry ferts versus the time, thought and effort combined with the knowledge that there will be a fair amount of "slop" in the mixing/measuring, I simply do not see this as a worthwhile exercise. I can get a bag of the correct stuff for cheap or spend days trying to figure what and how to get the basics and then still have a questionable product.
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Dry Fertilizer | Aquarium Fertilizer
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-25-2018, 05:55 PM
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At the price of dry ferts versus the time, thought and effort combined with the knowledge that there will be a fair amount of "slop" in the mixing/measuring, I simply do not see this as a worthwhile exercise. I can get a bag of the correct stuff for cheap or spend days trying to figure what and how to get the basics and then still have a questionable product.
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Dry Fertilizer | Aquarium Fertilizer
LOL @ csmb being the correct stuff.

It's designed for agriculture and hyydroponics to be mixed with hundreds or thousands of gallons of water at a time.

It's popular because it's cheap and was pretty much the only option back in the day to use with EI, besides expensive aquarium brand products.

Works fine for some (so did Jobe's Plant Spikes) but it can certainly be improved upon for our aquariums, both the ingredients and the ratios.

There's a 65 page thread of people doing just that.

Its no different from mixing a macro solution at x ppm, except there are six compounds involved instead of three


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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-25-2018, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by PlantedRich View Post
At the price of dry ferts versus the time, thought and effort combined with the knowledge that there will be a fair amount of "slop" in the mixing/measuring, I simply do not see this as a worthwhile exercise. I can get a bag of the correct stuff for cheap or spend days trying to figure what and how to get the basics and then still have a questionable product.
PlantedRich I am not quite sure why you would say that.

That little package of CSM+B you get is a scoop from a huge vat. You can even see the different colors of the compounds when your swirl it around. The odds of that one Tsp of CSM+B containing the same ratio of ingredients of the next one is slim in my opinion.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "slop" and a questionable product. IMO it's precisely the opposite. Mixing your own micros is extremely accurate, and there is no question at all about what you are getting. You are getting exactly what it is you set out to make. And importantly you have the option of altering/adjusting the ratios to your plants/tanks liking.

And as to thought and effort, honestly it's not really that difficult. I go pretty much step by step through the process on page 77 of my journal (link below in my sig). Compared to everything else in this hobby, it's nothing really.


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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-25-2018, 09:47 PM
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When I spoke of slop in the measurements, I was thinking of the difference moisture content makes in the measurements, combined with a lack of real accuracy in the way most of us will measure it. That combined with the estimate we are already making in the needs of any given set of plants makes it just not a "thing" for me.
If you enjoy it and it makes you feel you are doing something worthwhile, go for it, but I do not ever intend to get that involved with the tedious parts of the hobby.
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-25-2018, 09:53 PM
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Crappy csmb is solely responsible for the whole "micro-tox' thing.

Some folks never experienced it, didnt believe it and could post pictures to prove it. Cant argue with that.

To those that did experience it there was no doubt it was micro related. This went way beyond just newbs who didnt understand co2, which was the popular write-off at the time

Turns out both sides were right.

Micros themselves were never the problem. The problem was csmb, especially at PH levels too high for edta Fe, and to a lesser degree other variables which still remain a mystery.


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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 12:51 AM
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Crappy csmb is solely responsible for the whole "micro-tox' thing.

Some folks never experienced it, didnt believe it and could post pictures to prove it. Cant argue with that.

To those that did experience it there was no doubt it was micro related. This went way beyond just newbs who didnt understand co2, which was the popular write-off at the time

Turns out both sides were right.

Micros themselves were never the problem. The problem was csmb, especially at PH levels too high for edta Fe, and to a lesser degree other variables which still remain a mystery.
Burr that is an interesting post and a great observation. But most people won't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

You had to live through the "Micro-Tox Wars" to fully understand. I had just started being active here, and didn't know what I was walking into. It was a perilous time. Many were wounded, and still bear the scars.

And I do believe you are correct, both sides were right. No one understood the impact of pH on that equation. I mean look at you personally.......at one time .015 every other day seemed like a lot.....now .15 daily??? Crazy huh???
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 01:42 AM
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I know we have the micro thread, and I have been reading that. With the little amount of everything that is needed, and the large purchase quantities, is anyone mixing and selling their mix? Depending on the recipe I might be interested.

Do you dry dose it? Or measure out little packets to mix into, say 450ml of water and dose into the tank?

Right now I am dry dosing I to the tank, but as @Greggz mentioned, the CSM+B is not very homogeneous at 1/8tsp. I have not been mixing a solution either for fear of the Fe percepting out. My tank ungasses is ~7.5, run about ~6.4 with CO2 (no ph pen... ).
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grobbins48 View Post
I know we have the micro thread, and I have been reading that. With the little amount of everything that is needed, and the large purchase quantities, is anyone mixing and selling their mix? Depending on the recipe I might be interested.

Do you dry dose it? Or measure out little packets to mix into, say 450ml of water and dose into the tank?

Right now I am dry dosing I to the tank, but as @Greggz mentioned, the CSM+B is not very homogeneous at 1/8tsp. I have not been mixing a solution either for fear of the Fe percepting out. My tank ungasses is ~7.5, run about ~6.4 with CO2 (no ph pen... ).
Really comes down to what your aim is. I understand that the minimum quantities that you purchase will last you multiple life times. But at a one time cost of approx $70.00 for all the compounds and a weighing scale and having flexibility and more accurate micros as compared to csmb, it was a no brainer for me.

I made my first batch about 10 days ago - weighed the individual compounds, mixed them dry and then dumped it all in my dosing bottle which had water/vinegar.

With the minuscule quantities involved in daily dosing, I don't think dry dosing would be possible.


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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 04:58 AM
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Really comes down to what your aim is. I understand that the minimum quantities that you purchase will last you multiple life times. But at a one time cost of approx $70.00 for all the compounds and a weighing scale and having flexibility and more accurate micros as compared to csmb, it was a no brainer for me.

I made my first batch about 10 days ago - weighed the individual compounds, mixed them dry and then dumped it all in my dosing bottle which had water/vinegar.

With the minuscule quantities involved in daily dosing, I don't think dry dosing would be possible.
Okay- some great points. I'll do some more reading over on the other thread and may take the dive in. Thanks!



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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Grobbins48 View Post
I know we have the micro thread, and I have been reading that. With the little amount of everything that is needed, and the large purchase quantities, is anyone mixing and selling their mix? Depending on the recipe I might be interested.
I was going to send you a PM but it said you were unable to receive them. If that's something you can fix shoot me a mssg.

Im also on Barr report https://barrreport.com/members/burr740.26789/
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 10:29 AM
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I was going to send you a PM but it said you were unable to receive them. If that's something you can fix shoot me a mssg.

Im also on Barr report https://barrreport.com/members/burr740.26789/
I fixed my settings and sent you a PM. Thanks.



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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 02:36 PM
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I fixed my settings and sent you a PM. Thanks.
I got your mssg but it still wont let me send you one.

Send me an email -
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Last edited by burr740; 05-27-2018 at 10:56 AM. Reason: redacted email
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